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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
 Posted - 17 Mar 2003 : 9:06:29 PM
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The HMRAV has been actively promoting this category of sidecars to try and re establish this class. Thus far there has been plenty of interest and talk but little action. But I am confident something will happen soon. But I had a call from somebody today to speak about putting together some super form of 2 stroke that would beat everything in the post classic 650cc class proposed. Now I know we all like to win, but I am concerned if somebody uses modern tricks to produce this machine the class may be shot in the foot from the start. I do not know where it would stand on eligibility but I can assure anybody that I would work hard to rub it out on the grounds that whilst it could have been possible to produce in the Era, if it was not actually produced it should not run at all. As I have often remarked, such talent should be used in the modern era, and not used to corrupt the past. Remember we need to have 5 entries for a trophy to be issued and you may find that no trophies are offerred because we may not get the 5 entires. The spirit of the event is to try and attract yammy 650's, BSA's, Trumpies and maybe the 500 kwaka and the 550 Suzuki's which did run. If the super outfit fronts, it may be that many will decide not to compete and the resirection of the class will die. Please be mindful of this fact.
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John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2003 : 10:18:21 AM
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What periods does the 650 Sidecar class encompass?? What is the capacity limit for two strokes? Is the class limited to open front sidecars? What is the cutoff date?
If this class runs along with the 1040cc Hondas surely running a decent two stroke is OK?
Perhaps we need to limit the two strokes capacity to 500cc in the 'Junior class', and 750 cc in the 'Unlimited'?
Just a comment - in the past anyone contemplating building or buying an outfit has had to think about the oversize CB750s. The Junior Class is very attractive, but is it going to be limited to P3 and P4?
Seems to me there is a bit of benefit in keeping 70s Windles and Urqardts going.
How about getting the rules right so that we can run something 'decent' and still compete on a fair and equal basis? |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2003 : 12:48:08 PM
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| With regard to the use of 2 strokes in sidecar races I cannot speak with any authority, and I do not think there is any limit other than the standard capacity restrictions which apply to all motors. I did campaign a 550-600cc 2 stroke in the period But the issue of manufacturing something to fit in, even if it was not used may be an issue for discussion. I speak with experience on the other questions. 650cc capacity exists for HMRAV meetings in P3 and P4, to date there has been no feedback about the requirements for smaller engines of the P5 era because 650cc machines were not used during the entire period, and it may need to be resolved. The GCR's prohibit rear exit sidecars up to the end of P5. Generally the sidecar blokes are happy with the current rules, linked brakes and sidecar brakes are banned in P4 now but there is dispute about front exit within P5 but seeing few race in P5 it has not been a major issue at the moment.I do not know if the exit postion dispute will be settled at all. Alan, the sidecar gentlemen can work these things out " so dont you worry about that" Personally I see the Junior class in Post Classic P4 as the most likely area of increasing riders to Historic racing, the solo blokes are set in time and I feel they will run out of machines eventually, whereas there is plenty of scope for sidecars to keep growing, its just a pity not many know about this fact!! |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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Former Member
deleted
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12 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2003 : 3:41:41 PM
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| I have raced my Posty chair with a 500 triple in it on numerous occassions over the years.It is fun and competitive against smaller Hondas,especially on a twisty track.In fact my wife and I did very similar lap times at Mac Park on the 500 as the 750.It was heaps easier to ride.Mind you one has to rev it up a lot,but thats part of the fun. |
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Former Member
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12 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2003 : 3:44:42 PM
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| Forgot to log on.I have had races against Phil Franklin and also Darren Winter on T500 suzi's in postys as well.Russell Riddington used to run a GT550 in a posty as well,so there are a few options for the two stroke rider. |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2003 : 5:22:16 PM
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I wonder about this 'in the era' stuff. There is no way a 1040cc cb750 Honda is 'historic', they just didn't exist 'in the era'. Bikes resembling Rex's AMA style racers did't come out until the mid 70s. The Bill patterson honda was a proper factory CR750 Daytona racer with clipons, fairing and meggas, the rest were converted road bikes without four into one exhaust.
John's Ex Stan Bayliss Honda was, to my memory the bike which won a Junior sidecar race at Sandown in the early seveties. Stan was challenged on the capacity, and refused to have the bike measured. I believe the actual capacity was 836cc (honda 450 pistons)
So what are we trying to do? Are we recreating racing 'exactly as it was IN THE ERA', or are we having fun racing bikes which existed somewhere in the world at certain times? Or are we creating formulas which encourage competitive racing of bikes typical of certain eras?
My next question is - what is the latest sidecar I can race in the Junior Class, and what sort of two stroke can I use? Can I use 1980 watercooled barrels on a reed valved Yamaha twin of about 400cc, in a mid 70s sidecar?
I'd like to know this, as I am having a look around for something worth racing in the Junior Sidecar class.
Incidently, is Dennis Skinners Laverda or Barry Marshalls Konig considered 'historic'? |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2003 : 7:05:21 PM
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The GCR's and the principles of Historic racing seem clear to me. The argument about eligibility and what a mess the rules are has been well canvassed. But you did ask about the 650cc class the HMRAV has ben promoting. It finishes at 1972 because no person has put a case for the next recognised era of old bike racing. Now you mention that Stan Bayliss won a Sidecar race at Sandown, this may not be correct because I beat him on my Suzuki at Sandown and I had to have my engine measured! But I am aware that Stan ran 836cc motors in the Senior and I think he had different barrels etc for the 650cc races. This is not the venue to discuss what is historic. But you ask what is the latest sidecar I can race in the Junior Class, and what sort of two stroke can I use? HMRAV rules cut it off at 1972 at the moment. But if you put a case to others and get at least 5 machines with 650 cc machines for the P5 I am sure it will get support, I will put it up to the committee once I have seen the machines. Currently there are very few P5 sidecars about so good luck. You ask "Can I use 1980 watercooled barrels on a reed valved Yamaha twin of about 400cc, in a mid 70s sidecar?" PUT YOUR REQUEST IN WRITING TO THE HISTORIC MANAGEMENT COMMITTEE AT MV AND GET A DECISION FROM THOSE VESTED WITH THAT JOB.
Dennis Skinners Laverda or Barry Marshalls Konig would probally be considered 'historic'? I am not the authority but I did race against them, I do not see why not because they actually existed, but I think that centre hub steering which the Laverda had has been banned until after 1980 machines, but I understand the actual Laverda if found could race, but not replicas.I hope I have answered all you questions at this point. I am a bit burnt out at the moment and need time with my family, but most of the issues covered on the site could be well advanced if submissions in writing are put to the relevant Historic Commissions in each state. Maybe a solid campaign would work. I can say that they are looking for ideas to enhance Historic racing and even my natural impatience may need to be kerbed to let the plans evolve. But I am sure any worthwhile idea would be investigated.
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John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2003 : 1:33:20 PM
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John, I'd like to make my feelings very clear on one point. I really and sincerely appreciate the effort you are making to get some sense into historic racing. I'm sorry you're getting a bit burnt off, I'm a bit ashamed I haven't come out of the woodwork before this and made my feelings public on the several issues I've discussed. I will join HMRAV at some stage - whether that's good or bad, I don't know!
When I was racing in the early seventies I held a very responsible middle management position. I supervised 5 laboratories with 32 staff, and I simply had to limit my involvement in motorcycling. Now I'm sort of retired, I am opening my big yap, probably because I haven't got enough to do.
One thing I would say is we should think about 'what could be' and work towards it, rather than be content with a downwards spiral.
I believe historic motorcycle road racing is one of the really great sports. It could be a major attraction, and the fact that InCA now has World Championship Status, is a good first step. What would be nice, would be, if we could see the series on TV. How do we achieve that?
My sincere thanks to you and Robin for your efforts. I believe you have achieved a lot in a short time. |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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Former Member
deleted
63 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2003 : 6:58:43 PM
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| maybe you should ask Rex as he has one of Stan Bayliss old CB 750 motors. It sure isnt a 836cc bit more like a 1040cc |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2003 : 10:46:41 PM
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| I imagine Stan managed to eventually get the bigger capacity Hondas after he had developed the 836 etc. I vaugely remember him working on it, by building special barrels, but I would need confirmation from somebody else. But I have also asked some questions about P5 sidecars, rear exit are permissible in P5 but not mandatory, Junior class is limited to 500cc. So get those P5 outfots flying, but dont kill the class at the same time. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2003 : 11:42:11 AM
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| Note TZ and RD Yamahas are banned in period 4 sidecars, see page 132 of the 2003 GCR's. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2003 : 6:18:06 PM
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My brother and I have discussed a few sidecar options. My feeling is that most of the ealier sidecars were too heavy, and if we start looking at P3 and P4 we would still have the expensive reliability problems with the motors. Does anyone know of a good P5 sidecar going reasonably cheap, which is lightweight and would take a two stroke motor? The only sidecar I've ever been really taken with was Vince Genovas TZ750. I wouldn't ever race a TZ750 sidecar, but the same thing with a Kawasaki 500 H1 wouldn't be too bad.
With me it's a matter of getting something I can live with, and not feel disgusted every time I look at it.
The other thing is, it has to be something which not everyone is going to protest about, every time it does alright. |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2003 : 9:26:19 PM
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| Alan if you follow the GCR's and write to the Historic Management Committee about anything you feel is pushing your luck and there will be no protests. Go outside the spirit of the rules and nobody will probally notice. Just race with ability and not trickery and you will have fun even coming last. i note your concern about weight, there are a lot more stress's on the frame and I have broken lightweight frames when I have got too smart, within a race or two of using them. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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