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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
 Posted - 17 Dec 2002 : 4:58:48 PM
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the HMRAV has been asked to consider acceptting an offer from BEARS Australia Motorcycle Racing Club Inc. You must be logged in to see this link. is their web site. So have a look and let us know your thoughts.
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John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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Allan
Site Moderator
National
599 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2002 : 7:54:09 PM
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| well thats one reason not to run bears lkets conentrate on classic motorcycling |
Allan Greening |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2002 : 9:14:28 PM
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| Have this group pinched a great name for a different range of bikes? |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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David
Site Administrator
Australia
999 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2002 : 9:34:29 PM
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John,
Please explain?quote:
Originally posted by john
Have this group pinched a great name for a different range of bikes?
Which group are you talking about? And what range of bikes? 
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Regards,
David
Webmaster & Owner of Classic Motorcycling Australia
Quote: I thought I wanted a career, turns out I just wanted to be paid. |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2002 : 1:28:54 PM
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| From the web site it appears as if the BEARS racing association runs a sreires of british and european machines for all periods in a particular manner but including moderns. I get the impression that most people imagine BEARS to be Pommy, Yank and Wog bikes up to P4 or P5. Then Allan Greening suggests we should not look at this group of BEARS. As I am a sidecar rider I get confused with all the options etc. I guesss BEARS aint BEARS |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2002 : 5:52:33 PM
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BEARS means British, American and European racing. I don't have a problem with racing against any BEARS twin or triple as long as it has two valves per cylinder, and doesn't have a massive capacity advantage.
A race with P3 and P4 British twins as well as 70s and 80s Ducatis, Guzzis, would give no problems, as long as four valve motors are not permitted. The ruling that post 72 bikes must run petrol should be retained. This would give a form of handicapping.
I don't think anyone can deny that all BEARS bikes up to 1985 are classics.
I suggest the rules should include all BEARS bikes except the four valve Ducatis and Laverdas, and anything later than 1985, such as the new triumph triples. When it comes time to include these a capacity handicapping system will probably be required. |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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Allan
Site Moderator
National
599 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2002 : 6:24:36 PM
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| come on what all the crap about BEARS are bears if they want to run in P3, P4 or P5 they are welcome so why all the bull going on? i have seen ducati guzzi hd's all running in P4 so why this NEW crap let be .and get into what it's about for us classic motorcycling which includes P1 if any left, P2 a few,P3 many if people had some races to go to, P4 heaps of them , and P5 who know's who has what sitting in the shed? Please just worry about our part of the sport!HISTORIC'S |
Allan Greening |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2002 : 8:52:48 PM
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| With respect Allan I am not aware of Bull and crap going on. I thouight you suggestted we do not go with the BEARS assoc. in your 17 dec posting and your posting on 18 seems to give an alternative one. The BEARS ASSOC. seems to go right across the periods. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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Former Member
deleted
79 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2002 : 02:24:09 AM
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| I can't see any contradiction in Allan G's second post. BEARS already dominate P 1,2&3 so the category isn't even worth discussing there. In P 4&5 the good BEARS bikes are well capable of winning so whats the point in creating a second string sub class? There should be plenty of scope in the proposed pushrod & clubman classes. Modern BEARS bikes should get as much time on this forum as a NSR 500 does, that is nil |
Al Kidd |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2002 : 03:27:55 AM
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What do you call a 'modern BEARS bike'? I notice at the Interclub in Vic. they are now running 'Period 6', what is Period 6? Until recently P5 machines in Victoria didn't get a look in. Are we going to cater for 'Period 6'? The question I would ask is whether we should arrange for some races for 'modern' Ducatis (up to 1985) - these are now SEVENTEEN YEARS OLD.
I might be an old fart, but I recognise that time doesn't stand still. Twenty years passes in a flash, and what was considered 'modern' is 'historic' before you know it. The problem is that the old racers get scrapped or sold off overseas if we don't provide some sort of racing to keep them going.
try and buy a seveties 'green meanie', TZ, an ex-Bob Brown/Kevin Magee Pantah - they have mostly all gone.
Personally I would rather get Piss*d off by a 'modern Bears bike', than an old P4 road bike that was never any good until a ten years later crank was fitted, or a Jap two stroke running alcohol, which was very rarely used in two strokes in the old days (1965 to 1975).
I raced in the first ever historic exhibition race at Winton in about 1975. In those days I always raced my 500cc Triumph in allpowers C grade against RD350s, T500s H1s,H2s. Why would I waste my time and money repeating the debacle, what have I got to prove?
If we are going to race Japanese, lets have Formula Historic Japanese, and I'll bring out the TZ350G. If we are going to race British, let's have Formula Historic BEARS, and I'll bring out the Norton. But let's stop manipulating the rules so that the results of the races are predetermined - REX ALWAYS WINS unless you've got a big quid. |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2002 : 12:54:24 PM
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| The BEARS association run 5 grades of machines based on sixe for 3 of them and age for BEARS HERITAGE. They run a series around Australia, piggy backing on to other meetings. The HMRAV has ben asked to run the Vic Historic Champs and we have been advised that two support categories will be needed to finance the meeting. The BEARS Assoc. has offerred 30 -50 riders for their event . Such a large group will assist with the finances. Since we have been discussing including BEARS Historic anyway it is a good start. Currently they race at the INCA series at Eastern Creek and last year 77 heritage BEARS fronted, with about 30 BEARS beyond 1977 date of manufacture. The HMRAV committee has decided to continue discussions with the BEARS Assoc.with a view to promoting the Vic Champs and the BEARS as the program. The other support class may be F2 sidecars. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2002 : 6:48:42 PM
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| John, if including BEARS will bring 77 extra riders to a meeting at which we already have over 100 entries, it could be really good for the sport. I've always believed motorcycle racing is about having fun, and I really think that's what we will get with this proposal. |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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Former Member
deleted
48 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2002 : 9:40:07 PM
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| A number of BEARS Association riders have been coming to the Northern Territory's annual classic/modern race meeting for a few years now and this past year they held a round of their series with us. They are a great bunch of riders, on and off the track, and are an asset to any race meeting. |
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Allan
Site Moderator
National
599 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2002 : 09:28:26 AM
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| if bears are run are modern included? and do the classic riders get shorter races /or less rides to place extra classes into the meeting? if i remember correctly their was a complaint that if P5 races were held there is not enough time to run them (p5) at that stage now that P5 are running and you want bears who misses out the TRUE historic's bikes ?? as is stateded early post bears and nsr500 are not historic's race bikes but any bike up to 1080 cut of point "are" so lets keet to what we are about historic racing |
Allan Greening |
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Former Member
deleted
48 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2002 : 09:56:51 AM
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The BEARS series is for modern bikes and required three races over the weekend for the round of their national series. We could fit this in easily and they put on a good show.
Perhaps the Territory is not a good example of a combined meeting as we don't get enough classic entries to run all classes and periods.
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Former Member
deleted
79 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2002 : 2:26:00 PM
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Sounds like its time for a reality check.
Is it being proposed that historic bikes give up track time at a historic meeting to moderns?
I thought this whole issue was about having special races for BEARS bikes that fitted into the existing periods, and I can't see the point.
Formula Xtreme cater for these bikes and so does MA's national series, and they both have Victorian rounds.
To be honest, if the proposal is for modern BEARS it should have been stated from the outset and rejected immediately so time and resources wern't wasted and other
suitable support classes investigated.
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Al Kidd |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2002 : 04:29:34 AM
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There seems to be some concern that 'modern' BEARS might run at Historic meetings and take up program time normally used for 'period races'.
I have been attending historic races for over twenty years and I have noticed a few things.
Recently there was a meeting at Winton where riders were asked whether they wanted to 'go home early', or have more races. The guys wanted to go home. Winton is only 200 km from Melbourne - what's the story? I would have thought after the expense of getting there, they would elect to race! Track time is valuable.
I have watched a lot of races where the grids have had ten or fifteen max bikes. Period 4 races where all capacity classes are represented in the one race (- THIS IS DANGEROUS!)
Meetings where Period 5 and Period 6 races have not even been held.
I suggest that if a couple of BEARS races includes 'moderns', that's the price we have to pay to get P5 and P6 BEARS bikes to the meetings.
Just to clear up a point, the reason for running BEARS is that P5 British and Italian bikes will get a competitive ride at historic meetings. Why would you bring out a P5 Ducati, Laverda, Guzzi, Triumph or Norton, to get blown off by a TZ in a P5 race? Do you think that's racing? The contest is completely unfair, and very expensive.
By running BEARS we could have a few races where the P3 featherbed (850) Nortons and Triumphs (on alcohol) run against seventies and eighties Ducatis, Laverda and Guzzis on petrol. It would also bring out P4 Triumphs and Nortons in the same races. What would be wrong with that, if the races are run in capacity classes?
Some of the earlier bikes would be disadvantaged by their drum brakes, but apart from that they should be just as quick as the later bikes. It's all historic racing, and personally I would rather be blown off by a modern four valve Ducati, than a sixties Yamaha two stroke on alcohol.
I raced for about twenties years on a featherbed Triumph 500 in allpowers C grade. In those days the racing was st*ffed up by Japanese two strokes - it still is. It's a complete waste of time and money, to bring out a British (or Italian) four stroke in any class other than P3, under the current rules.
The suggestion to run 'Formula Historic BEARS', and Formula Historic Japanese support races, would supply something for everyone, and it makes bikes competitive which wouldn't normally get a look-in.
I suggest we should try it at a few meetings. |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2002 : 9:03:21 PM
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"To be honest, if the proposal is for modern BEARS it should have been stated from the outset and rejected immediately so time and resources wern't wasted and other suitable support classes investigated."
Al, sorry but if you read my first entry you will see I gave all the details of the BEARS Assoc. offer which includes a range of machines comprising pre 1977 and post 1977 era's. The financial reality is that classics and post classics including P5 are just not fronting in numbers at the moment. As a club we need to have financially viable meetings, currently the Vic Champs cannot fill the grid in all categories, there is ample room for two support categories with 4 rides each over the weekend. In reality we either have a meeting with something like the BEARs or we dont have a meeting. Until we can find variations of categories that will create bigger fields of machines, the offer of a BEARS section which in Sydney last year had twice as many pre 1977 machines than post 1977 machines may mean we get a financial meeting. We cannot take the pre 1977 machines alone. Any ideas which will result in more entrants are most welcome. As you can see as Secretary I am trying to get the thoughts flowing,on alternatives but we need proof of existance of the machines we are looking for before we roll out the carpet. To date nobody has contacted me with a request for more information about possible new categories, nor are they clambering over me with offers of entries, despite all the entries on the site with all the headings I have started. We need new ideas, please help.
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John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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Former Member
deleted
79 Posts |
Posted - 26 Dec 2002 : 10:53:34 PM
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John, you may have given the address of the BEARS site but read the replies, its been focussed on whether or not to run period or "heritage" Bears, thats how it was interpreted and thats the feed back you asked for in your original post.
Nobody needs to contact anybody about new classes, the 2003 GCR's provide 4. Pre war is now offically split into up to 350 and over 350. Formula 700 is in for P3 (526 to 700) and Formula 750 is in for P4 (526 to 750). Hopefully that will get bikes out of the sheds. Though I must say I like the idea of a P4 pushrod class.
What is the reason that stops you offering races for pre 77 BEARS and leaving the modern ones out of it?
In another post you talked about ideas for getting more people at the tracks. Your idea of an annual swap meet is a good one and so is the one about getting more people to camp over and get together more. I hope the "H" doesnt get forgotten and dropped from HMRAV.
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Al Kidd |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2002 : 01:02:57 AM
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Does the 'H' in HMRAV stand for Historic'? I was of the impression that modern motorcycles were the ones with 16 and 17 inch front wheels, deltabox frames, six spot calipers, upside down forks! Doesn't seem too hard to tell one from an historic bike!
Setting a year such as 1977 seems very foolish. It excludes all two strokes with exhaust port control - WHY? Whats wrong with racing a 1983 Yamaha TZ250 in a P5/6 historic race? Are you saying a 1985 Yamaha has no historic value?
I think it's about time we became a bit progressive. The bikes which were competitive ten years ago seem to disappear before they ever become eligible for historic racing.
Back in the seventies I was offered an Ex Ginger Molloy 500 Manx (1962 model) for $1300. Why would you want the sh*t heap - would you race it in Allpowers C grade with the RDs, Z900s,H2s. Five years later when historic races started most riders would have given their left naccer for the bike. (It went back to NZ last year for $57,000).
The same thing is happening now, only worse. Our bl**dy stupid rules have a cutoff date which is miles too early.
Try and find a TA125, a TR250, a TZ350G,a TZ750, a H2R, a TR750, a RG500, a watercooled TR500. I bet you can't find any of them in reasonable condition. The reason is that they become redundant in modern races long before they are ever eligible to race in historic events.
Over the years it has become very clear that the guys who write the historic racing rules, write them so they can win on the bikes they, themselves own. In doing this they are doing our sport a disservice.
I suggest we shouldn't worry about getting blown off on our P3/P4 850 Norton Atlases by early eighties Ducatis. For one thing we already blow off all the Triumph 750s (with the ten stud heads), for another Ducatis and Guzzis just aren't that fast on petrol.
I suggest our major objective should be to get bikes to historic meetings. If they happen to look a bit 'modern', SO WHAT? Anyway what is 'modern' about any two valve Ducati or Guzzi (or Harley or Laverda for that matter)?
Personally I would prefer to watch all BEARS events and lose the Jap Sh*t. Some of the converted Jap road bikes which are being raced are really disgusting. Interesting to note that in Vic there is only one Honda 500 four with clipons, fairing and meggas, the rest of them look like seventies C Grade machines. If you want to know what I'm on about - have a look at the old Bill Patterson CR750 Daytona Honda - that's what Jap historic racers should look like.(Sorry Rex) |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2003 : 6:06:37 PM
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AK thanks for you input. The Formulas 700 and 750cc has crossed over our discussions and I imagine that has helped us a lot. Please remember I am the messenger not the final decison person, I have deliberately asked for comments to help the committee be aware of alternatives.You have asked "What is the reason that stops you offering races for pre 77 BEARS and leaving the modern ones out of it?" I belive the offer from the BEARS Australia group is for pre 77 bikes, and a smaller group of moderns as apackage of these types of bikes. At the moment I do not know why the cut off date for the Heritage has been set at 1977. But later models race in their class. It is my understanding that all the machines actually race in the one event with classes separated out by the timekeepers. Is my explanation clear and helpful?
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John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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Former Member
deleted
79 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2003 : 12:42:58 PM
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John, thanks for the reply. The GCR's are perfectly clear on what type of machine qualifies for Historic racing. The option is there for a pre 77 (Period 5) BEARS bikes to enter.
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Al Kidd |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2003 : 3:14:40 PM
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| Previous promoters of the Vic. Historic Champs had found they need to have non Historic races as a support group to make the event a financial success. In the past Buckets and some proddy racing in small capacties have been used. The BEARS offer came as the HMRAV is looking at the Vic. Champs and the need to perhaps have support events. One advantage of the BEARS offer is that it does provide additional "Historic " bikes a which dont seem to attend traditional meetings. Mind you the other part of the offer does include Moderns as part of the package. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2003 : 3:17:18 PM
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John, I think some of the guys are a bit freakish about the prospect of encountering 'moderns' in races. Personally I don't think any BEARS machines apart from four valve Ducatis and late model three and four cylinder Triumphs, can really be called 'moderns'.
Everything else including post 80s two valve Ducatis must surely rate as 'historic'.
As I said before, I would much rather compete in a BEARS race (up to 1985) than P4 with Jap two strokes and rotten overbored Hondas.
If anyone thinks 'period' racing is anything like what happened 'back then' - THINK AGAIN!! It just wasn't that good.
Best Regards, |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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Former Member
deleted
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11 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2003 : 7:17:38 PM
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At Eastern Creek in August we gave up to track time to modern sidecars who got more practice and more race laps than any historics that day. They were also boring to watch.
The regs for the Feb meeting at the Creek has karts on the programme. It seems from the paperwork that we are not going to be allowed in the pit lane when they are out!
I would rather have the BEARS there, at least some of us ( OK , that's me) could get an extra ride. |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2003 : 10:25:58 PM
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John, thanks for your comment, I totally agree with it. When we start running karts and modern sidecars at historic events, we can kiss a major part of our already limited following goodbye.
I might be romancing, however I believe that one day we might be able to generate a competition which could have a similar following to the big sporting events in America.
I suggest we could move towards this by having the Australian Historic Road Race Championship, held on a points basis over several events. This could include 'Period' races as well as Formula Historic BEARS, and Formula Historic Japanese. (Just a thought, but it pays to think big.) |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2003 : 5:35:35 PM
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Talking to John the other day, he mentioned that including 'modern' BEARS in historic meetings gives us blokes with older BEARS bikes an opportunity for a couple more rides.
I'm interested to find out the times for 'modern' BEARS on various circuits. Two years ago Craig Mc Martin on the 996 Duke ran 1 min. 23 secs. at Winton on the big circuit. This was 1 sec. faster than the V8s. I'd like to know what times Rex, and Ken Watson run on the big circuit at Winton?
If there are events run for BEARS including 'moderns', I'll certainly run with them, it would be interesting to know just how fast they are. |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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steve
Level 2 Member
Queensland
86 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2003 : 11:25:54 PM
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Hi All
A few things things about BEARS racing!! I don't mind racing with Bears if it means getting a few more races per year, it is not much different racing (speed wise) in period 4 when your up against 20 odd Honda 1000s which to my thinking don't look period anyhow!! We are getting a few more races in February at the Creek because of BEARS!! As most promotors want is to break even at the end of the day, & if it means bringing in more paying riders/karters & a few more people coming through the gates & sponsors getting more value it can only be better in the long run for the Historics, I think if you bury your head in the sand & keep out the Modern bikes we won't have any races at all as cost are rising running meetings, so we do need a change, & BEARS for providing the opportunities, & John last year we did have the chance to run with BEARS here in Qld & only 3 from the local Historic club bothered turning up, it didn't give a good view for Bears this year here in QLD, the races were a lot safer than the last period 4 race at Phillip Island when I was down there last year,
There were 43 paying riders & Bears paid for the trophies & everything to do with the BEARs side of things, All the local race Club did was just gave them Track Time, as you know John the Local Historic club here don't support Period "5" even when they were offered us 8 more race meetings per year! I support BEARS here in Qld & Down south just to Justfy my licence fees Steve |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2003 : 08:58:25 AM
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The HMRAV has decided to accept the offer of the BEARS ASSOC to run their 5th Round of the National Champs as a support race with the VIC> HISTORIC CHAMPS. The meetinng will be held 29/ 30 November 2003.
BEARS have 5 formula based on power to weight issues and I shall put the details up when I get a chance. The Hertage section has been extended to 1980, so it fits in well with the Preiod 5 machines. Remember anybody can enter this event in addition to the normal events which will run that week end. There is also thoughts to offer an additional award to the best performance for the oldest BEAR, so if anybody has some ideas about how to determine who wins that we would love it. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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Former Member
deleted
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1 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2003 : 2:45:06 PM
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Giday everyone.
My name is Phillip Gray and I am the president of the BEARS Australia Motorcycle Racing Club.
I would like to thank Alan and HMRAV for putting us on the program.
The BEARS have raced for four years now at the INCA meeting held early every year at eastern creek. I do feel there is a
good synergy with the historic racing fraternity and BEARS. Mostly, people from both groups tend to race unique
machinery. This is something I've always found appealing about Historic and BEARS racing. I think the crowds also
appreciate this facet of the meetings we go to.
Thanks again from the BEARS club, and I look forward to seeing you all
at Broadford, if not at the eastern creek on the 8-9th of February.
Phillip Gray
President, BEARS Australia MCRC |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2003 : 05:21:09 AM
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Phillip, a few years ago I raced a T250 Suzuki (on alky), it was faster than the featherbed Triumph I raced then, and my lap times on the two stroke were about three seconds faster.
These days I own the Mk3Seeley/Norton 850 which is simply superb to ride. I also have a TZ350G which I haven't used much.
Simply speaking, when you ride the Norton you can feel the hairs growing on your chest, but if you really want to race - go japanese (and go modern).
I absolutely love races with Ducatis in them. The four valve Dukes are something else - but I wouldn't like to be paying the bills.
At Phillip Island last weekend there were about four bevel motor Duke twins racing, and a couple of them were brilliant.
Personally I don't have a problem racing my Norton against any BEARS bike except 4 valve Dukes and late model Triumphs (90s). I'd absolutely love to be in a race with the bevel motored bikes, I'm pretty sure I can at least get near them.
There's nothing worse than having a Jap two stroke ring-ding it's way under you in a corner when you'r on the Norton. I know I can do that but it's not the racing I want to do. If I want to race against two strokes I'll ride the TZ350G.
I think it will be really great to have a few BEARS races at Historic meetings, to me BEARS bikes are the same old SH*T we all ride, and they are really stirring. |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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