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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
 Posted - 28 Nov 2002 : 4:24:57 PM
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The HMRAV is thinking about including the following classes on top of the existing classes normally run,at the 2003 Southern Classic which will be held on 4 /5 October 2003 at Broadford, the long weekend for NSW and SA. They will be entered in the Supp. Regs with the following provisos, 1] min. 5 entries to get trophies, 2]events may be run concurrently if safe, 3] 35 entires would be run as a race itself, the whole idea is being developed so please comment
Categories 650cc Post Classic sidecars, Formula 2 solos P4 and P5, Formula BEARS and Formula JAP, Clubmans P4, P4 750cc stock Solos, pre 1957 clubmans,650cc twin 4 stroke Solos.
If you want to support the concept please approach us, give us feedback, come to the Rdie Days at Broadford to demonstate your keen ness etc. What are your thoughts , will it attract new bikes and riders?
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John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2002 : 8:27:21 PM
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| I'm glad to see you intend running Formula (historic) BEARS. I would really like the opportunity to race my Seeley/commando against Peter Guest, Martin Hone and the guy on the 3 cylinder Laverda, and a few triumphs and nortons both in featherbeds and unit construction. I think it will make for really interesting racing, and anyway at least it's a bit different to the old formula. Thanks for the opportunity, I'll really try and be there. |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2002 : 9:20:19 PM
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John,
I note that in your posting, you seem to imply that you expect difficulty getting entries. In the past on entry forms, HMRAV has simply asked machine capacity, make and year of manufacture, and riders were simply allocated to events to suit the bikes. I suggest at the October meeting, you might consider running one half the meeting as it is always run, and the other half in the new formats. Simply allocate riders to the new events as you have always done. You probably should explain the new formats at the riders meeting, and ask the guys to show some tolerance while we try the new formats. |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 29 Nov 2002 : 07:58:24 AM
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| Alan, the bigger problem is that the current riders resent any intrusion into "their" racing time. So the idea of cutting the day in half just would not be agreed too, partly on the basis of they were there first and partly because the other bikes have not yet entered a meeting yet. It would be a gr8 problem to have, too many machines. Currently there is room within the existing race structure to insert appropriate bikes until the numbers warrant a complete overhall of the program. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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Former Member
deleted
79 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2002 : 01:09:39 AM
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John, congrats to you and the HMRAV for the proposed format/plans for the 2003 Southern Classic, the opportunity is there for it to turn into something big.
The extra classes could be a logistical nightmare though, I assume they are proposed to be added to the existing established classes?
We are putting a 650 Tiger into a sidecar so I'm glad to see that one. What is the difference between P4 Clubmans, 750 stock & F2 and is the 650 twin 4 Stroke class for P3?
I'm not at all convinced that separate historic Jap/BEARS classes is necessary, its quite often divisive which is not what historic racing is all about. The class also hasnn't been particularly successful in Australia. The main focus of the HMRAV is P3 and earlier where BEARS is not really an issue.
If a non Jap bike is good enough to win a P4 or P5 BEARS race its good enough to win an open race. Plenty of people are racing non Jap bikes in P4&5 and having a heap of fun and getting places, its lame threatening to bring the bike out of shed only if the rules change. If enough non Jap P 4&5 bikes start showing up at races then maybe consider the class, seeing is believing.
Al Kidd
PS. In case you think I live on a diet of saki & noodles
650 Tiger
500 Red Hunter
500 ESO
Mk7 Pursang
(gulp) 980 TRex Honda
and the Buell which I had a ball on at the ride day yesterday, thanks for that.
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2002 : 08:14:10 AM
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| The proposals are just that at the moment, if we get entries will will hook in new races between the existing ones. The pre war machines are dropping out of the program and there may be room to absorb. Admittedly some riders just want more riders just want more rides for themselves, but that does not pay the track hire. contact me at jdaley@pictureframer.net for the discussion papers about the clubmans etc but they are detailed on this site under General Discusions and then under the appropriate titles. there are others who want to put Beras and Jap together but it has worked before and I feel we need the proof it will not work before we close the door. It is not a matter of letting Japs beat Bears or visa versa,it is a matter of getting more bikes on the track. As for 650cc twin I dont know if we even thought of having P3 and P4 mixed or not, I suppose it would not be an issue if the older bikes entered the newer grade. You are missing the point about Formula stuff and open racing. We are experimenting with bikes that may not get a look in at a race meeting because of the class structure and the ability to completely alter the machine. Most of our new ideas are for generally "stock" machines that would not normally get a look in. Remember we are resisting suggesstions to make classes suit somebodies specific bikes so they can blitz the field. There is currently a place for hot bikes now. OUR PLAN INVOLVES GETTING MORE BIKES TO THE TRACK SO WE CAN AFFORD THE TRACK IN THE FIRST PLACE |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2002 : 2:23:55 PM
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In Victoria, there is only one unit Triumph which is really competitive in P4. It is owned by Allan Landers and has a Nourish shaft and four valve top end. In P5 there are virtually no Ducatis running in Vic. I understand there are a couple of guys in SA who have hot Dukes and do alright (must cost them a bomb). (70s Ducatis are historic bikes in my opinion), anyone who races a 70s Duke in P5, or who races a 750 Commando or unit Triumph without the gear in P4, doesnt have nuch hope of beating Rex (1000cc Honda) or Stuart Polkinghorn (GS1100 Suzuki). You can spend all the money in the world and not get there.
The suggested new formula offers the opportunity for seventies Triumphs, Nortons and Ducatis (on petrol) to race against all the hot guys on P3 and P4 BEARS machines. (All those 750 Atlases which look like 850s to me).
It also gives Rex the opportunity to get blown off by Stuart.
So everyone gets a chance to be competitive - some in normal P3,P4,P5 races and some in Formula (historic) BEARS and Formula (historic) Japanese.
The big advantage is that we might get some of the guys with unit Bonneys, BSA's and 750 Commandos to bring them out again.
For myself I want to race my Seeley Commando 850, but if the format doesn't change a bit I'll have to race my TZ350G in P5, if I want to get a decent ride. I just cant afford to hot up a commando enough to be competitive in P4 (I already have one set of split cases in my possession). I really don't want to race a two stroke, I didn't choose to do that in the old days. I built the Suzuki 250 that Ian Whitehead won 23 races and 5 championships on. If I had wanted to, I would have raced that earlier on. I'm just not interested in doing that.
Anyone who wants to win every race in P4 can do it with a decent two stroke - why would you bother? |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2002 : 11:49:52 AM
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From Al "The main focus of the HMRAV is P3 and earlier where BEARS is not really an issue."
Al this is simply not correct the HMRAV has by shear reality adopted periods 5 on top of the P4 and P3 they have been dealing with for ages. In fact there are more P4 machines by heaps than all others.Please do not keep that rumour going. But I hope your 650cc trumpy comes up well.
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John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2002 : 11:07:26 PM
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| If you've got a TZ350 and think you can ride it, it would be worth bringing it out in Formula (historic)Japanese. P5 bikes run petrol, and it will be interesting to see who can beat Rob on the alcohol fuelled TR3. |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2002 : 11:11:07 PM
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| Incidentally, if Rob has still got a TZ, we might all be in trouble. |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2002 : 12:36:37 PM
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As an active observer of the discussions and without trying to insult anybody deliberately, I have noticed some issues. I am perplexed about the requests to have the potential non tradiditional categories hotted up. Surely the full blown race classes are for those "race prepared" machines and other machines that people want to hot up from standard. Otherwise why would people enter the new range, when there are already classes suitable. What I see is people trying to avoid racing in the full blown classes and having any proposed class for machines which have not fitted the traditional classes, altered to suit their own machine. For example the 750cc push rod that works well in USA and seems a goer in QLD. I have been asked to up it to 1000cc. Somebody else wanted to race a 1963 triumph with a norton in the pre 1957 clubman class. Others have asked about including two strokes in the push rod class. There is even a comment about the concept of separating BEARS from JAP as being unfair. As Secreatry I am simply trying to get more bikes on the track to keep the finances improving, not provide opportunities for odd ball machines to win solo races. Sorry fellas if I sound cynical but as a sidecar rider this is how it seems to me. I am glad I ride sidecars, it is too hard to work out the solo classes. Are my comments too simplified?
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John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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Former Member
deleted
79 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2002 : 11:21:45 PM
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John, your opinion is pretty much on the money. What is emerging from this (and other) discussions is that there are 2 camps. The restorers and the racers, with a fair bit of cross over.
The restorers want everything to be as it was, concourse if you like, even if they do put 18" wheels on plus belt drives, different magneto's/ignitions etc etc etc.
Thr racers want room to move, they will play with engine/frame combinations, use the next best thing if an authentic part or replica is unavailable or ridiculously overpriced etc etc etc.
The restorers run the risk of killing the classes simply through natural attrition and cost while equally the racers run the risk of killing the classes if they were allowed to go too far.
We need both groups obviously, without both historic racing will die. Both camps though must work together. If people are asking for more classes, and the bikes are actually there to front the grid then the organisers should consider them. Equally MA needs to look at the existing classes and rules with some forethought into the future and perhaps develop a way to listen to the entire historic racing community rather than the chosen few. I agree completely that tightning or relaxing of rules, class changes or additions, and anything else should have the sole objective of getting more people and bikes on the track regularly. |
Al Kidd |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2002 : 9:49:04 PM
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I agree that there appears to be 'two camps'. I believe there is some value in a purist approach as taken in New Zealand, however in Australia I have only ever seen one or two manxes which you could really consider concors. I think, if I was ever to race P3 500cc, a Ray Berry/Craig Morris type machine would be a much better way to go. I believe that in the past HMRAV have favoured P3 racing, and personally I believe it is the premier class. A win in P3 500, costs a lot as you need the $2500 front brake, the $6000 gearbox, the titanium rod and valves and the short stroke crank. As a development class, you end up with a full Inca replica racer. As a purist class, you buy the $60,000 1962 Manx. Either way its expensive.
I suggest we need to decide what we are going to do with these classes. Personally I lean towards developing Inca compatible machines. |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2003 : 09:08:19 AM
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| So crunch time has arrived, the HMRAV committee meets on Monday evening, can you simply list the categories of new events you would like, just the name with no explanations because I have to print them all and compare them, thanks. Now remember we need bikes on the track backing up the requests and dont forget I would prefer more siodecar races. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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Allan
Site Moderator
National
599 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2003 : 2:11:57 PM
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| for my 5 cents worth, keep as is and police rules (log books should do that)!but add push rod class to 850cc and up to 1980. |
Allan Greening |
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Former Member
deleted
79 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2003 : 3:24:01 PM
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The GCR's have worked okay for years, the classes are there plus some new ones.
You read a lot of crap of this forum about modifying the classes to suit a few, pity is it mostly comes from those who don't even ride.
If its a real crunch issue for the HMRAV, defer it utill the next committee meeting and in the meantime go and ask the riders at Phillip Island what they think. You'll probably find that reality and the dreamtime are different. |
Al Kidd |
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Allan
Site Moderator
National
599 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2003 : 4:22:04 PM
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 Riders I have Sponcered Roger Cornelle and Richard Franks sidecar, Cam richardson, Bob Brown , Rod Scott, Craig Anear, Perry Alexolups, Tony Clarke, Clive Harrop,Sandra bell,Steven Charlsworth, Ricky Clark. and have had a punt my self from 1956,bikes Triumph 500 short stroke in f/bed , 250 Ducatti t500, 750 triton. buckets tz350G PLUS AFEW OTHERS and still suporting riders even set up this web for KEEN classic racers with the help of my son David So looks like I wast my time in MOTORCYCLING  |
Allan Greening |
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Former Member
deleted
79 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2003 : 6:28:03 PM
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| No-one has ever questioned your commitment and involvement Allan, calm down and have a beer. |
Al Kidd |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2003 : 09:54:36 AM
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Allan,
I for one appreciate your commitment to historic racing. You have the runs on the board. However I believe we must, for the benefit of the sport, consider new ideas and be prepared to change.
This forum presents an exciting opportunity for riders to discuss the current format of races, and propose new formats. I greatly appreciate the opportunity to put my views.
At the end of the day we all still end up on the grid, the only difference will be that who is alongside use might be marginally different, to what we are currently experiencing.
Personally I don't want to ride my Seeley/ Commando 850 in races against Japanese two strokes, and oversize fours. I did this Bullsh*t for fifteen years in the sixties and seventies, and it's just not on. If I'm going to race Jap sh*t, I'll use the TZ350G or I'll buy a TR3.
Get REAL - we all know there are thousands of bikes in sheds which are not raced because they are not in any way competitive. Why would you bring out a unit Bonney in P4, it'll get crapped on?
What disturbs me is that the bikes which were the REAL THING in the sixties such as Seeley G50s aren't competitive in 'period' races in Australia. This means that even if you build a 'good thing', it can't compete.
I strongly urge everyone to consider Formula (Historic) BEARS and Formula (Historic) Japanese classes, to be run in support of normal 'period' races, at a few meetings. LET's TRY IT. |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2003 : 11:03:57 PM
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| Al I think your idea of talking at Phillip Island is a good one. Alan Cot. whats the issue with the Seeley G50? and Alan greening please do not take my questions as an insult they are not meant that way. Its just that a Secretary I am seeing less bikes entering over the years and something needs to be done to get more to the track. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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Former Member
deleted
79 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2003 : 12:30:17 AM
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MA nearly got it right with the 2 new classes, though from what I hearing from a lot mates they've dissapointed a hell of lot more people than they have pleased.
When I first got sent the 2003 GCR's I thought there had been a word omitted from the F700 & F750 descriptions, that word is PUSHROD. To fully succeed as a class I reakon pushrod motors are mandatory.
The P4 F750 class is a bit strange, it should be 850 to cater for Nortons and others with kits and bigger bores and it should be P5.
Take a bit of time to consider what bikes would fit a P5 F850 pushrod class. It could even become the premier P5 class. |
Al Kidd |
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David
Site Administrator
Australia
999 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2003 : 07:09:10 AM
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John,
Please do not take this the wrong way, but you appear to be promoting more modern bikes than classic/historic for the almighty dollar.  quote:
Originally posted by john
Al I think your idea of talking at Phillip Island is a good one. Alan Cot. whats the issue with the Seeley G50? and Alan greening please do not take my questions as an insult they are not meant that way. Its just that a Secretary I am seeing less bikes entering over the years and something needs to be done to get more to the track.
Should you not be trying to get more classic/historic to the race track?  The riders have voiced their concerns and no-one that is in a position to do something is currently listering to to these users, why? 
I have read, we are going to do this and that, and what are your thoughts? And when a user actually says something, it is a matter of we are going to do this anyway. 
You have said quite a few good things in the past 6 months, but there is always stuff that people will not like, but there is also a time to listen to the actual riders.. 
I do not ride, but have been around bikes all my life and have lived Allan's passion for his bikes, a passion that stopped him for a while there, because it got to much, plus the fact that I drank battery acid at the bike shop when I was younger. 
All I am saying, is it is about time that the people who control the sport of classic/historic motorcycle racing should start to listen to their riders, or the sport will die a slow, then a quick death.  Time for a change in policy.
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Regards,
David
Webmaster & Owner of Classic Motorcycling Australia
Quote: I thought I wanted a career, turns out I just wanted to be paid. |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2003 : 07:26:07 AM
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John, The issue with the Seeley G50 is this: The fastest ever British single cylinder machine is a Seeley Mk3 frame with a G50 Matchless motor fitted. In 1972 Paul Smart won a GP in Europe against the two strokes with one. In 1997 Bob Heath ran a 107mph lap of the Isle of Man in the classic TT with one, this was the fastest ever lap with a single.
the point is that, if you have one of these bikes in Australia, it is a waste of time racing it. It would be eligible for P4, but it has to compete with TR3 Yamaha, T500 Suzuki, and H1R Kawasakis on alcohol.
Recently two Seeley G50s were sold back to Europe by an owner in Sydney.
I have only ever seen one in Melbourne (years ago), it was owned by Craig McDonald. It blew up the first time it was raced, and was never seen again.
There are a few things which could be done to make 60s four strokes competitive. 1. make all two strokes in historic racing use petrol. 2. Run a historic BEARS class for 500cc motorcycles. 3. Allow 60s 500cc four strokes to run in P3 races.
Part of this discussion gets back to the INCA issue we talked about some time ago. The fastest Inca bike is Sandro Baumans Seeley MK2/G50. Most of the 60s bikes in INCA wouldn't be able to compete successfully in Australia. The two strokes would crap on them.
the way the rules are, it prohibits anyone from building a genuine 60s style GP bike (four stroke).
It really frustrates the hell out of me to read Classic Racer mag. and see what runs in the UK, compared with what runs here.
If the poms can get it right, why can't we? |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2003 : 07:40:10 AM
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A little bit more about my comment on P3. If P3 was extended to include 500cc and 750cc four strokes up to 1968, it would allow riders in this premier class to use Seeley, and Rickman frames, as well as the usual featherbed and enfield frames used on nearly every bike in the class.
When riders come up against the Ray Berry /Barry Sheene Manxes, at least they would have something which handles a bit better than a featherbed, even though their motors might be slower.
Might just make for better racing. |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2003 : 1:26:41 PM
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| David, thank you for your comment about my notes appearing to be emcouraging Moderns. It has not been my intension to deliberately encourage moderns at the expence of classics and I shall make sure my entries do not reflect that impression. I am surprised about your suggestions that I have been making decisions, contary to the thoughts of riders, because I must refer to the committee and the general membership for any final decision. But I am happy to address any issue I have buggered up. As Secretary I have assummed the role of getting discussion happenning and people thinking about issues, prior to a final decsion being made. I do not always agree with every decsion but that I know I must accept. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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Allan
Site Moderator
National
599 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2003 : 2:07:48 PM
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 John hope all goes well for you tonight at meeting |
Allan Greening |
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