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David
Site Administrator
Australia
999 Posts |
 Posted - 13 Oct 2001 : 09:58:50 AM
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Below is a rule submitted by a member that is an extract from the Historic Road Race Commission meeting in July this year.
Now how about a debate? Can this be good for the sport?
Regards,
David Greening
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Allan
Site Moderator
National
599 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2001 : 09:04:16 AM
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| Good question? But does this mean that Triumph 650cc engines would not be able to use .060 oversize pistions? How do I get on? I have a 650cc engine destroked to 498cc which was built in the late 50's and has been ridden on and off since that time do I have to now make it into a 650cc engine? And does that make 700 Morgo engines out also? And 4 vale head where around to suit! And the 350 BSA that are destroke 500! And over bored motors with shorter strokes will they be allowed? So every body runs Triumph 750 barrells and destroked cranks to make them 650cc!! Triumph unit motors did this on their last 650 unit motors!! And special barrells for Matchless and Ajs can also be destroked to 500cc so just go and over bore and destroke your motors to 500cc or what ever and they will still measure 500cc or whatever and will still go quicker!! |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2001 : 5:24:16 PM
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About bloody time too!! I suggest the rule should say: 'The maximum capacity for any machine in any class shall be the Manufacturers Catalogued Capacity as listed for engines with the machine's crankcase number (or type), plus 5 percent for rebores. Where a machine is a 'special', individual application explaining circumstances and mitigating aspects shall be made to meeting promoters, for acceptance of the machine in events.'
This means all pre-unit triumphs will either be 500's or 650's. All pre-unit Nortons will be 500's, 600's, 650's, 750's or 850's. All the big Hondas will be 750's. Making bikes to the same capacity by short stroking and overboring might give some advantage, but nothing like fitting a bore kit and a CB900 crank to a 750 Honda. Let's do it next year!! It can't come in soon enough. |
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Former Member
deleted
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18 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2001 : 2:14:19 PM
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Our club responded to the Commission to the effect that if something like this was to be done, extreme care would be required not to impact on machines that are not the root of the perceived problem. (Interestingly we received a rare response from MA that our letter was too late to be considered - haven't they got their priorities right! - the joys of our fabulous administration).
Let's face it, the over-capacity Hondas in Period 4 are seriously impacting on other marks being raced - why would you race a 750 British or Italian bike against an 1100 cc Honda which is basically a worked Bol D'or? I think they'd be better off insisting on original 750 sand cast engine cases.
The unwanted impact of the rule change referred to could be to say Period 3 750 Triumphs, BSA B31 cases matched to B33 barrells. Obviously this is not what the commission is setting out to do, but they could inadvertantly unless a lot of thought is put into the wording of the rule. It would be a lot easier to include something to the effect: oversized 750 Hondas are not permitted (let's face it - this is the Commission's aim). |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2001 : 6:07:24 PM
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I don't think there would be much dispute about B31/B33 crankcases, and anyone who invoked the rule in that case could be accused of being frivolous. In the old ACU rulebooks there were rules relating to 'malingerers' etc. I believe the rule should regulate 750cc triumph triples and 850cc Nortons just as mich as 750cc Hondas. It's possible to fit a bore kit which will bring a triumph triple to 1000cc, and nourish cranks and bore kits to bring Nortons to 920cc.
Similarly Triumphs in the fifties were no larger than 650cc. The Jesser Triumph was 730cc when ridden by Ken Blake in the sixties. So what are we trying to do with 750cc Triumphs in Period 3. (This crap about ten stud heads is relevant also. I believe you can't get a triumph to 750cc unless you use one.) We certainly aren't creating racing 'as it was'. Incidently I believe Norton atlas's came out in 1963 so 750 Nortons are probably not eligible for Period 3 either. (and I only saw two genuine ones in Melbourne in my life, so where did the rest come from?).
I get a bit sick of the 'cheaters', In the fifties there were a couple of 600cc sidecar Manx engines about, apart from that not many people cheated on capacity in road racing. Historic racing is a total bloody joke when riders try to compete on twin cylinder 750cc machines against japanese fours of 1000cc.
It doesn't help young riders learn to ride properly, and it puts riders who don't cheat at risk when they try to compete!! |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2001 : 04:46:11 AM
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| Seems a bit pointless debating something for which comment was due in two months ago. Can't we get a bit of input on this forum regarding rule changes, in time for comments to be taken into consideration by MA? The 'Manufacturer's Capacity Rule', is good, but the time frame for introduction is ridiculous. In five years we will have burnt off a lot of historic racers from period 4, when they find out what they are racing against, and the ridiculous cost of doing it. |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2001 : 8:55:26 PM
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| i agree with the sentiment of everybody. But why are we so late in discussing the issue, was much time allowed for discussion by MA in the first place? |
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David
Site Administrator
Australia
999 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2001 : 6:40:39 PM
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John,
I got the information only 3 days before I posted it on the site from Robert Hinton. This was some, what 14 days after comments had to be in. Now that is hopeless that we are informed well after things need to be objected to.
I don't know about anyone else, but I feel if they (the people who decide on these rules) are only going to make the information known well after you have an objection, then we need to ask, are they the sort of people we want running this sport? I personally think not! That is why we set this site up so that these organizations can inform you the rider of planned changes and give you every possible means to object to it if you so desired or to praise them on the decision.
I am only too willing to place information from these organizations on this web site for others to take note and find the information easily, which is not the case with this or any other rule I have seen come through. Or better still join the forums and post the information them self!
That is my 2 cents worth. So I have given all the organizations that control the sport of Classic Motorcycling or Post Classic Motorcycling, or even clubs of these sports to use this site a central point to inform the riders of these sports and make it easy for them.
quote:
i agree with the sentiment of everybody. But why are we so late in discussing the issue, was much time allowed for discussion by MA in the first place?
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Former Member
deleted
31 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2001 : 6:27:37 PM
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Ha ha ha. You guys think you've got enough problems with eligibility issues now !!?? Wait till these sort of rules are introduced !. Then you'll see the total collapse of Historic racing in Australia amidst fevered arguments and lodgments of protests. The concept of racing historic bikes will be viewed as a joke on par with the modern Superbike sagas of the late 90s where factories were protesting one another constantly. I myself race a standard bore 1100cc engined CB900. These rules will make the sport ELITIST where only the people who have THE RIGHT MACHINE which was fast in the period, would be the leaders.
These rules would mean that my CB900 frame could not be fitted with a 1100cc engine, dispite the use of CB1100Rs in the period. So we sould end up with the 'have's and the 'have not's. Unless I procured a CB1100R frame, I would not be allowed to fit an 1100cc engine !!?? Please explain to me how this would be good for the sport !!?? The addition of the T-Rex bikes has brought previously unknown interest in our sport from all aspects of the bike community - from spectators to shops as sponsors. Wanna set ALL PERIODS BACK 20 years ??
Australia doeas not have the numbers to be ELITIST in our sport. The more bikes are on the grid, the better. This discussion obviously stems from a ' I hate JAP bikes because they can be made to go faster than my Brit' mentality. The recent Winton P5 Unlimited races proved that capacity does not necessarily mean a win ! A bog stockish Ducati Bevel won the title, blowing off the bigbuck CBs and GSXs of the field. I have been beaten by [in New Zealand] factory replica Triumphs on the fastest tracks ! How is my bike unfair ?!
After years of allowing mods as per GCRs and past GCRs and not policing them, MA and the appointed Historic Commissioners have ended up with bikes as they are. The horse has bolted gentlemen.
So what's the solution ? In NSW with P5 we have a similar issue in that stockish P5 bikes are seen to be no match for the modifieds. So, INSTEAD OF BANNING THE HIGH PERFORMERS, ADD simpler classes where people can feel that they can compete on a level playing field ! At club levels, in all states, start classes for Stockish bikes alongside the modifieds. If the concept takes off, MA can ADD these to the list in a few years ! |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2001 : 11:43:59 AM
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I think the whole issue depends on what we are trying to achieve in historic racing. If we are trying to recreate the racing of a particular era, what we are seeing now is nothing like it used to be. In P4 Hondas were only ever 830cc, in the old days using 450 pistons, my old 500 Triumph blew most of them to the weeds.
If we are trying to make the sport into spectacular and interesting racing. Lets have two sets of races - one for substantially unmodified production bikes, run on strict capacity classes (Manufacturers' Catalogued Capacity), the other for modified machines up to 1985, with no restrictions on overboring for the 'unlimited class'
The trouble with this approach will be the number of races to be run to cater for each type and capacity class.
At Winton last Sunday a race was run which included several classes of bike , the racing was spectacular, but the results were hard to decipher. I still don't know who won each class. It's not much consolation to win a class in such an event, as I always feel - first over the line is the only winner of a race.
I think our sport would benefit from a few people building replicas such as Suzuki XR69 s (GS1000R), and something that looks like a genuine Honda racer.
So while we are talking about changing the rules, let's look at what we are trying to achieve. Let's please the crowd and do something really worthwhile for motorcycling history, would be my approach. |
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Former Member
deleted
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2 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2001 : 9:28:30 PM
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All the talk is about capacity & big bore Honda’s the way I see it,
The easiest way too resolve this is to alter the class from unlimited.
The fact that unlimited is from 525 to 1300 is ridiculous,
It would be fair to bring in an upper limit of 750.
Then your classes would be 525 To 787 then 788 to 1300, then if you want to overbore go for it. ????
If this was the case overbored 650 triumph's can still run ,honda's can as a std bike and everybody would be on a level playing field in that class call it
the /Post Classic/classic Sportsman.
I think this is what everybody wants, and this would I think bring more people back or to the sport were the can race on a fairly std bike and be competitive.
The peolpe who want to overbore past this limit would still be racing bikes
in there own class,{instead of a 750 Triumph racing an 1100 Honda which is the case now. } |
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Former Member
deleted
31 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2001 : 5:26:47 PM
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I agree, Shane - have a capacity break either based on a number such as 750 OR based on 'Period Specifications'. Let the modifieds have their own trophy...
All you lot have to do now is convince a MA affiliated promoter to actually RUN races inviting some new spec groups ... What do you guys propose to do about this ?
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2001 : 8:13:10 PM
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| I agree that a 750 class would be good in P3, P4, and P5. It would mean that the big hondas, harleys and vincents would be moved into an unlimited class on their own. Smaller capacity bikes could still run against them, but the competition would be mainly within each class. Like Zoli, I think it would be a backward step to lose the big capacity bikes from historic racing. They are a good drawcard for spectators. Leaves the problem of two strokes vs four strokes, so lets run two strokes of half the four stroke capacity in each class. |
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