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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
 Posted - 27 Apr 2003 : 7:51:38 PM
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I want to make a personal comment here. I am puzzled about the comments about the cost of racing. It has always cost me heaps, nobody broke my legs to take it up though. Why do people think they should be able to go racing motorcycles and then find a audience to complain about the costs involved? I am not trying to say it should be elitist, but we have competitors making insurance claims, we need to improve circuits to reduce the risk of injury and claims, people dont take responsibility for their own decisions, we have track hire costs which need to cover costs of about $3000 per day in Vic. and much higher in NSW, we have bikes worth between $500 and $50,000 and we race for blocks of wood.
We have issues of eligibility, no promotion of the sport, almost no respect for any controlling body and a mixture of dates and meetings that make it hard to have full grids. Yet the biggest issue for some is costs. Surely if we got everything else right, we may have spectators and more competitors and entry fees may actually come down.
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John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2003 : 8:42:46 PM
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John, the cost is only one factor. As the pokie owners would say it's a matter of the size of the 'bang for the buck'.
I go racing in the mistaken belief that if I build somethinbg 'typical of the era', it might be competitive, and I might have a chance to compete on an almost equal basis, and actually outride another rider in a race. It proves to me that I am still a superior rider to many.
The fact is that we all cheat to some extent. I use a few jap parts on my Norton, but it is still an 836cc British sh*t heap. The guys that use CB900 cranks in a CB750, Four valve Jawa heads on Pre 62 BSAs, don't do any of us a favour. When you know this sort of cr*p is about we simply stay away.
If the capacity classes don't suit certain machines, we don't race them. (how many unit Bonnies are racing? and years ago they were very popular e.g. the Jesser Triumph)
Why would I spend $700 to run at the Austin 7 meeting, and get blown away by 12 1040cc CB750s.
Your 750cc pushrod class is running combined with the unlimited post classic, I'd rather race against 1970s 860cc Ducatis in a BEARS race, at least I'd get a competitive ride for my money.
At present there is no value in historic racing, and I feel I'd be better off getting an old RS125 and go racing modern.
Simply put it's a matter of what we get for our dollar when we race.
Incidentally racing InCA is worthwhile, even if it involves using a Jawa engine in the Seeley. Whatever the cost, we will get to ride in REAL competition against the world's best. Ask Greg Johnson or John Maher what they think about it! |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2003 : 10:03:17 PM
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Alan, you are distorting the facts about the 750cc pushrods. Yes they are combined with the unlimited post classic, just as the sidecars are all combined and individual classes are separated at the end.
And many other classes are combined when either the numbers are not entered or there is limited track time. You dont do the discussion any good when the whole storey is not told. At Historic Winton there is an allocated track time for all entries and classes. As has been done since Moses parted the water, fields have been combined to get the grids full and use track time more efficiently which helps with the costs.
You talk of $700 cost to attend Winton, try my costs with the sidecar of over $1500 to attend plus the $15,000 to build a reliable sidecar which will come third last at best. My team does it for the fun, the trills and the fact that in 30 years time we will be able to brag we tried and done it. Thats why I go racing. I dont drink, smoke,or go to dinner or the flicks, I work long hours and spend time with friends and family. Thats how I can scrape the bucks together, that I need to meet the costs. I believe there is plenty of racing at an economical price if you are realistic about the ambitions. I ride a $400 postie CT110 with some mates every two years for a 20000 km trip, we all have bigger bikes. We have a ball at 85 kph max, because we are all on the same small machines. Why not race 250 cc if you do not want to committ the funds to a big bore? Or help develop the production classes that have been spoken about, or just ride something and be happy to participate like we do.
Some blokes are never happy, there has never been a 750cc pushrod class for years, we dont even know if we will have an entry because the riders has kept that a secret, and now you want a separate race for the prime donnas, cut it out. If 40 entered they would have there own race, but we have to wait and see what turns up.
Eligibility is an issue but I dont see people lining up at the Committee room doors putting up a case to fix it. The rules as set down years ago permit internal modifications, end of story, its no good still complaining that should have been done years ago.
You have to accept the reality of the situation as it is now. At HMRAV we are trying with the 650cc Post Classic sidecar class to overcome this fact, but nobody other than alan cotheral stood up to help establish a solo class that could not be tampered with, the 500cc aussie banger.
I dont remember the sign at the club rooms that says Historic Racing is cheaper than tiddly wicks and modern racing, some of the bikes currently being ridden would give me two sidecars and I am not talking about the flash harrys from the UK or NZ. Maybe you have to become coulda beens a instead of wanna bees and find something to race somewhere. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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Former Member
deleted
92 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2003 : 01:01:12 AM
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| Well i have'nt had a race in 2 years but when i did i raced for the crack and cos i thourght it would be fun .it was i had a good time i dont have the money to do it at the moment but when i di i will have a go once more .i never run with just one club .i dont run for points in any champion ship .i just race when i feel like it with the club thats running at the circit i want to race at that weekend .i dont pre book .i ring up the day befor when i know its not going to rain and book in last minuet and if they are full i dont race .racing is just for fun to me if you cant aford it just run when you can .i do . |
Thrash to the max you power band crazy fools "two strokes rool" |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2003 : 03:39:45 AM
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John, when you race a Honda RS125, you pay your $6000 and your $500 per meeting, and if you are a good enough tuner and rider you win.
In historic racing you buy your Rex Wolfenden honda copy for $12000 and the same applies. Anything else will cost you a bomb.
I own two bikes a 1968 Seeley with a 1973 Commando 850 engine, and a 1979 TZ350 - both not worth racing. The Norton threatens to drop its guts every time it's raced. In the past there have been very few races for P5 Yamahas, with $200 pistons and $1600 barrels.
Both of these bikes were represented at the top of racing in the sixties and seventies - why aren't they competitive now, if the 'RULES' are right?
I will give you the short answer -When I raced in the early seventies almost everyone raced an RD350 Yamaha, an H2 Kawasaki or a Z900. The guys now in historic racing couldn't make the grade then, against a very fast C Grade field, and they don't want to see those races return.
There has been constant opposition to P5 from a number of people. They seem to think these old bikes are 'modern' - what a joke!
You know what my bikes are - if you had to choose one, what would you race? An expensive TZ with no events to run in, or an undercapacity (or is it overcapacity)oil p*ssing Norton?
The 750 pushrod class is an excellent move, however I have to build a 750 motor to be eligible. The possible move to run P4 and P5 together could be interesting enough to cause me to bring out the TZ. So there's hope yet!
My personal preference is to ride the Norton, it just feels better. However as far as getting good rides - forget it!
I suggest whoever makes the eligibility rules should try to generate good competition and full grids, however I think there's a bit of unjustified paranoia about P5 machines which stops that. |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2003 : 08:29:38 AM
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Alan a lot of riders are just happy to run around on $500 solos and they have fun. We are getting a new sidecar competitor from Ballarat who got his motor from the wreckers, my own motor came from a similiar path but we have pulled it down.. It goes well enough, wont get near the Taylors but he is still going to turn up.
We all would love to have the funds and the balls to be at the pointy end, but somebody has to come second and I am happy to be where we are and I compete against my previous times. WE reckon its a good meeting if we Stay on the track, keep the engine in one piece, beat a particular competitor and dont get sunburnt.
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John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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steve
Level 2 Member
Queensland
86 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2003 : 10:47:13 PM
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Hi Alan
I hear comments like I won't race with the "moderns" (P5) anything after 1962 are modern bike's what C#$p, Post Classic's still don't get the same track time as the Classic's I see at every meeting I attend, interstate or local it's the same across Australia, I see at some meetings are having 350, 500, unlimited classic racers between 20/25 entries 3 seperate races pre class, times 2 or 3 races a day & the period 4 fellows lumped in all powers in one race of 30 odd riders closer to 40 1 race per day maybe 2 & at the end of the week-end I'll bet I know which class would have the more running bikes, I still like to see Period 3 & 4 unlimited bikes race together & have under 500cc period 3 & 4 racing together I think it would be closer racing & more entries for the unders(500cc) & overs classes, you could even throw in the period 5s, I have no drama with Period 5 as it's what I cut my teeth on as a young'un I race Period 4 but have a few P5 bike gathering dust in the corner because here in Qld they class them as Modern Bikes & don't include them at the Classic meetings.
Steve |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2003 : 6:31:11 PM
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Dave,
I must be a bit funny, but I don't understand comments like 'I won't race against moderns'. I raced from about mid sixties until late seventies, using Allan Greenings Short stroke triumph in a featherbed frame. The opposition was H2s Z900s, RD350s. On my best day I led a C Grade race for three quarters of a lap at Winton. Two of them got past me under power at the end of the back straight, and I ran off when one of them outbraked me (too slow!).
I don't have a problem racing against any bike up to mid eighties of similar capacity, with my Norton 850.
I really think we should try to recreate seventies racing. Run a few Historic Superbike races (up to 83), and start using RD350s and RD250LCs.
Best Regards,
Al |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2003 : 11:58:00 AM
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| Can you stick to the topic WHY I RACE it may be interesting. I feel the commentry about everything else should be at a different topic and detracts from the statement WHY I RACE OLD BIKES! |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2003 : 9:28:12 PM
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John, I'll tell you why I race an old bike. Up until the mid seventies it was possible to build a racing bike which was competitive with anything the factories built. Difficult to build a multi as fast as a Honda, difficult to buiold a two stroke as faast as a Yamaha, but possible.
I believe the most fun you can have is to build something which is fast and handles from bits and pieces, and then race it successfully.
My Seeley originally had a Laverda motor in it when it was owned by Ray Bann. Russell King rode it against me at Winton, and succeeded in causing me to land on my head, when he outbraked me, and changed line. The bike was sold and the motor taken out and lost.
I followed the frame (rolling chassis) around for two years and finally bought it for $250. (A similar frame from Barber Engineering in UK costs $3500 without tanks forks or wheels. Then it's only a replica).
My frame is a genuine Mk3 Seeley, similar to the one used by Paul Smart to win a GP in Czechoslovakia in 1972 against the two strokes( with G50 engine).
I built a Norton 836 Commando engine into the frame (cost $1000, back then, and a four speed close box - $1000 last year).
I didn't race it back then (late seventies) as it would have been as useless against the Z900s and H2s, as the Triumph was.
A couple of years ago I decided to give it a run. I was surprised how good the Norton Motor is, and how well the whole thing handles and performs. We've had a lot of trouble getting it right, brakes were horrible, and I've had continuous anxiety at the end of straights. It has been diving too much under brakes, so I fitted shortened Pantah springs.
At one stage the bike had Ducati fork yokes fitted, under brakes it would stand up and turn out of the corner. I fitted Yamaha TZ fork yokes, not the bike oversteers under power. It is a wonderful thing to ride, and I love it dearly, even though it is an oil leaking sh*t heap. The bike has a little bit of titanium fitted and the front is actually lighter than my TZ350G.
When you ride this bike you can feel the hairs growing on your chest. It feels like a really torquey 125. It actually feels like it's got 80 horsepower on tap.
So to sum up. The reason I race old bikes is that the problems are always the same in all preunit machines. It takes sound engineering practice to overcome them. If you build something that's really good, you get a real buzz out of it.
I don't understand why blokes race $500 sh*theaps when for an extra $1500 they can make something really spectacular.
Incidentally I think the Norton cost about $5000 to build, and a Gus Kuhn replica (which is what it is) is probably worth about $25000 in the UK.
A few guys have grumbled about racers with trick frames. That's what it's all about. Have a look at the Henderson Matchless. Development is the name of the game, and old bikes offer a golden opportunity for self-expression.
You don't have to build a Seeley Norton, a good RD350 would be enough to win a lot of races. Find yourself an old Spondon or Maxton frame. |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2003 : 10:32:35 PM
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Talking about Spondon frames. I ran into one of your HMRAV members at Winton a while back - can't remember his name. His brother was an international rider who rode for Vic Camp. The bike your guy had at Winton had a Spondon frame, Oldani brakes, and a 250 Ducati motor. I don't think it would be competitive in any class, however it was THE GENUINE ITEM. The brother (killed overseas) had sent a lot of then current racing stuff home, to make up this bike. And what was at Winton was an early sixties genuine racer at the highest stage of development.
All I can say is - what a bl**dy lovely little bike, it's a real credit to him, and an example for us all. You guys are welcome to race your $500 specials, but please don't park next to that Ducati, when I want to take a photo! |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2003 : 9:06:58 PM
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| Two points Alan, the $500 solos are actually racing on tracks and not in the workshop, I respectfully suggest your discription of them is out of place. Secondly when does engineering development practise pass the eligibility rules that the rest of us follow? |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2003 : 11:25:41 PM
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John I take your point about the $500 solos. I shouldn't criticise anyone who is actually having a go. What I would say to those guys is that an Ivan Tighe camshaft for a four cylinder four stroke is probably a couple of hundred dollars, and you'd spend another couple of hundred buying four megga exhausts. Why not try and build something which is a bit similar to the sixties multis? If you are racing a two stroke there's plenty of fast bits around. Why persevere with something which isn't much fun?
Incidently I've only seen a couple of bikes I think would cost $500. I believe most of the guys have spent a big quid on their bikes.
About engineering development - I think we've got a problem with it! All the problems we considered hopeless years ago, can now be solved.
I think the answer lies in adopting the old grading system, and just live and let live. I know we don't have full grids at present, or enough riders to have graded races in each class, however I still think that the answer lies there. One day someone with a big dollar will buy a Honda 350 Four replica or a Benelli 500 replica from George Beale. What are we going to do? Ban them? They'll certainly beat everything else. Even if we ban replicas, there are a few people around like Team Obsolete who can afford the genuine item.
A few years ago I saw Kel Carruthers on a 250 Honda four beat Ron Toombs on the Henderson G50, several times. |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2003 : 08:27:07 AM
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| Ok so I am curious as to why other forum participants race in the Hisdtoric Section, please drop a line. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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