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Chris L
Level 1 Member
Victoria
12 Posts |
 Posted - 29 Mar 2003 : 7:49:15 PM
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As most people are probably now aware the license fees have gone back up to $350 per year in Victoria. This is an absolute outrage, and stating that this massive fee is needed to cover administration costs must be a load of crap. MAV does little to support classic racing, 9 times out of 10 it is a hindrence. Do they need their office in the middle of one of Melbourne's most expensive inner city suburbs when most dealings are by phone or mail? They could be in the south pole and have no effect on 99% of riders. They have been operating for approx 70 years, if they are not established now they never will be, so why should Victorians in any club riding any machine possibly as little as 2-3 times a year be forced to pay $70 a year more than any other state in Aus?
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2003 : 10:05:59 PM
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Chris,
WHY DON"T YOU DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT?
The ACU (now the 'CONTROLLING BODY' - Motorcycling Australia/Victoria is simply a UNION. You as a member of an affiliated club can have your say. It's what's known as REPRESENTATIVE DEMOCRACY.
I suggest you write to your club president and copy to MAV.
Recently I wrote to MV to try to get single event licences for historic meetings - apparently my request was unsuccessful. It simply means I won't be riding this year! |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2003 : 09:33:01 AM
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FACT 1 MOST OF THE LICENCE FEE INCREASES COVERS INSURANCE
FACT 2 RIDERS, OUR COMPETITORS, ARE MAKING CLAIMS
FACT 3 IF YOU HAVE CLAIMS YOU HAVE TO PAY OUT MONEY
FACT 4 IF YOU HAVE LOTS OF CLAIMS YOU NEED LOTS OF MONEY
FACT 5 RIDERS PAY THAT BUCKET FULL OF MONEY
You will notice at another part of this site that we discussed this and asked for members to become involved, to date I must report that the Historic Management Committee, the HMRAV committee has not received a single submission in writing to present a case for an alternative. Perhaps riders want somebody else to do it, but as discussed in the earlier topic proof by participation awith a well presented case is the only way we will get change. I can say that other staes are $70 less at the start but they have higher levies per race meeting.
I have stated earlier that I am too busy to work on the presentation directly and alone, but I will assist. Personally I will pay the fee, but I have made respresentation to MV and MA about an open 3 event licence. But nobody has backed up the concept. As Secretary I do not belive I should be the only person to create any presentation on the issue. Proof of real concern, by many is required. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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Chris L
Level 1 Member
Victoria
12 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2003 : 6:23:31 PM
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After speaking to several interstate people that have ties with MA NSW& MA SA they were flooded with calls from racers from Vic who were all interested in obtaining interstate licences. However it seems that unless you have been a resident of another state (OR HAVE AN INTERSTATE MAILING LICENSE)for 3 months then you will be unable to gain a license from that state. NSW fees are $253 with SA $258. NT and QLD are believed to be cheaper but I don't have any prices.NSW is believed to be in a very stable financial position. The down side of people leaving Vic clubs to obtain interstate licenses is obvious injury to the clubs, HOWEVER people would still be able to join an interstate club for their license and stay a Vic club member and still save money. MAV would suffer financially and would need to reduce their fees. Other states would not need to increase their fees due to the increase in license renewels in that state. MAV needs to realise that they are ineffecient and that increasing fees is a knee jerk reaction.
As for an increasing No of insurance claims, I thought you could only claim for permanent disability or death (but not in person!)
All this is food for thought. Chris. |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2003 : 7:03:06 PM
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I was always under the impression that the insurance offered to riders by MV covered lost time injuries (time off work), permanent disability, and death.
Seems a bit silly to insure against time off work, when most people are covered anyway - double dipping?
There was an A grade rider in one of the clubs some years ago who worked for the public service. He spent a lot of time on 'light duties' and I'm sure he received insurance payments for 'lost time'.
THAT SORT OF THING DOESN'T HELP OUR SPORT TO SURVIVE!
If you crash your car the insurance assessor makes sure you don't get 'paid twice', why can't the insurance company behind MV do the same thing?
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Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2003 : 10:40:07 AM
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| I have spoken with MV about the process in which the decision about the licence fees was made. Apparently the General meeting of the delegates of all clubs, heard the alternatives ranging from high fee and low levy to low fee and high levy, together with the data about the situation. Subsequently they collectively made the decision we have all seen. One club the Enduro club voted against the proposal. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2003 : 5:23:31 PM
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DATE: 13th February 2003
TO: Motorcycling Victoria Club Secretary
FROM: Peter Wright, Motorcycling Victoria General Manager
Re: Insurance Costs and Motorcycling Victoria Fees and Charges.
Dear Club Secretary,
The very well talked about topic of 2003 Motorcycling Victoria Competition Licence fees have now been determined.
The fees are as follows for 2003:
Senior National $350 00 + $5.00 rider levy
Senior Club $350 00 + $5.00 rider levy
Junior National $320 00 + $5.00 rider levy
Junior Club $320 00 + $5.00 rider levy
One Event Licence $ 44.00 + $5.00 rider levy
Recreation Licence $ 80.00 + $5.00 rider levy
The rider levy for every Supercross event is $30.00 and the rider levy for every Freestyle event is $100.00.
It is important that I give you the background as to how these fees have been determined and the reasons for the insurance cost increases.
Insurance Policies
As you are probably aware there are several insurances applicable to our sport because of its nature and activities. The main insurances are -
· Rider Accident Insurance
· Public Liability Insurance
· Directors & Officers Liability Insurance
There are also other normal insurances covering the Motorcycling Victoria office and equipment, the Broadford offices, machinery and equipment and the Motorcycling Victoria Motorsafe Van. I should remind all Motorcycling Victoria Clubs at this point that your Clubs Insurances for office, facilities and equipment should be checked to make sure your Clubs assets are protected.
The three main insurance policies listed above are secured by Motorcycling Australia in association with all Affiliated States and the Northern Territory. The Rider Accident insurance is a major component of the competition licence application process and there is also a proportion of the competition licence which goes towards paying for Victoria’s share of the Public Liability Premiums.
The Directors and Officers Insurance is an insurance for all Executive Members, Staff, Management Committees and Affiliated Club Office Bearers.
On the 7th December 2002 all State Bodies and the Northern Territory were called to a Special Insurance meeting with Motorcycling Australia. This meeting was called as a result of extensive negotiations involving Motorcycling Australia, AON (our insurance brokers) and many insurance underwriters which resulted in only one insurance underwriter being prepared to quote for the first $2m cover of our required $50m cover. This only quote arrived at 11pm the day before our meeting of 7th December 2002.
The AON Brokers and Motorcycling Australia had also been working on the possibility of our sport forming its own insurance company called a Captive to cover the first $2m of our $50m Public Liability Policies.
As the premium from the somewhat unknown insurance company and the setting up of our own (Motorcycling Australia’s) insurance company was about the same – all States, the Northern Territory and Motorcycling Australia agreed to set up the Captive.
Underwriters for the next $8m and $40m of our total $50m Public Liability cover were obtained quite suitably.
The next few weeks after the 7th December meeting saw many meetings of the full Motorcycling Victoria Executive calculating new 2003 fees and charges which would be required to pay for all of our insurances with the largest premium being that of the Public Liability Policies. The setting up of the Captive – our own Public Liability Policy for the first $2m of potential claims required Motorcycling Victoria to pay its share ie 19.5% of the total insurance premiums for 2003. The 19.5% that Victoria pays to Motorcycling Australia is based on the number of competition licences we have which is approximately 3,200 (this incorporates a possible drop in licence numbers). N.S.W. has about 6,400 so its payment is obviously higher. Queensland is about the same as Victoria.
There are many people in Victoria asking why Victoria’s fees are higher than other States. There are a few reasons for this. These are: Each state has different membership numbers; each State has different permit fees and charges; only Victoria has a State Motorcycle Complex to maintain; some States have had rider levies for some years and have been able to build up a sizeable bank account and can keep their licence fees lower. However with different rider levy fees in each State; at the end of this 2003 year some Victorian licence holders may well have a lower licence cost than other States whereas others may have a higher licence fee. The number of times a rider competes and pays the rider levy is a determining factor.
The Motorcycling Victoria Executive calculated over three long meetings at the Motorcycling Victoria Office that each of the 3,200 licence holders must pay $400 in licence and rider levy fees for the insurance premiums and also to conduct the ongoing activities of Motorcycling Victoria and the State Complex. If Motorcycling Victoria makes an annual income over expenditure figure of around $35,000 - $50,000 we are doing fine in the eyes of Government agencies as we are supposed to be a non-profit sporting organisation. If we made a significant profit we would not receive Government support. Motorcycling Victoria’s operating profit for 2002 was $50,041.
I have attached a copy of the new 2003 licence fees and permit forms.
If any Club Secretary or member would like clarification of the fees and charges and how they were determined, please feel free to contact the Motorcycling Victoria office.
Yours sincerely, Peter Wright General Manager
In addition to the attached document:
1. There was a very short timeframe after the 7th December 2002 Meeting to find the money (Victoria's proportion) to set up the Captive - remembering that all States had to agree to this at the 7th December Meeting or the sport would not have existed during 2003.
Just imagine what would have occurred if full consultation would have been attempted with every club - there would have been no consensus and therefore no decision.
2. Given that approximately $400 had to be found from each license holder to pay for the insurance and run Motorcycling Victoria and Broadford for the full 2003 year - from where else do the license holders think the revenue will come?
3. The decision reached on the $400 per license holder was an Executive decision based on information from Motorcycling Australia on what each State had to contribute and also mathematics. The decision on the way to achieve this - i.e $280 plus $15 rider levy was a General Meeting decision where all but one person voted for the $350 plus $5 rider levy.
4. Darryl Hiddle calculated on line graph that after (11) eleven rides the Victorian license becomes cheaper than the New South Wales license.
5. Some other statistics from various other sporting organisations:
Pony Club - approximately $450 per annum
Netball - approx. $500 per annum
CAMS - approx. $2000 per annum
Victorian Drag Boats - approx. $650 for six months.
Water Skiing -nearly didn't get insurance this year.
In conclusion the riders are very lucky that so much effort was put in by the Management of our sport at National and State levels to make the sport actually happen this year. Quite frankly when comparing our sport with other high risk our riders are well off. The riders can help with lowering the Insurance fees by encouraging their rider mates to stop claiming against our Public Liability Insurance. They surely cannot really expect to have it both ways?
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John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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Chris L
Level 1 Member
Victoria
12 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2003 : 8:25:03 PM
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| So after a Vic racer has done more than 11 meetings a year the license works out to be cheaper than a NSW license. That must be comforting to moto-X and 250 proddy racers but the rest of us are still getting screwed. And how many representatives voted for this rip-off fee-even if they were not at the meeting? |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2003 : 11:58:52 PM
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Perhaps we would do better to regard motor race circuits as workplaces, with riders, officials, and office staff as employees?
We already have to conform to Victorian Workcover Authority requirements for safety, and places like Winton and Phillip Island already pay massive insurances, some of which also cover rider injury claims.
I wonder whether it is advisable to have a UNION such as MA/MV setting up an insurance company to underwrite rider injury claims when insurance companies are already effectively being paid twice for the same cover.
I believe that if MA/MV do set up such a company, they should do it in conjunction with the promoters such as Winton Motor Raceway Pty Ltd and the promoting clubs (such as HMRAV)as shareholders.
I suggest MA/MV should maintain a role as rider's union, not the 'controlling body of motorcycle sport' in Australia.
Best Regards,
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Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2003 : 12:06:30 AM
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How about $30 licence fee, and $40 levy? When you have eleven rides a year it costs $470.
It's known as USER PAYS. |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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Former Member
deleted
79 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2003 : 02:18:43 AM
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I had a look around today at what other states charge for various licences, and honestly have to wonder at the future direction MAV is taking. Apart from Victoria charging more than any other state, Tassie is under $200, there are a few disturbing facts which only exist in Victoria.
A National Licence, whether senior or junior, is exactly the same price as a club licence. That effectively makes a club licence redundant. You have to draw the assumption that MAV has no intention in supporting or promoting closed club events.
A Junior licences is now $320 a year. All of those juniors are predominantly racing moto cross and being sponsored by parents, many of who don't ride themselves or have much of an interest in bikes beyond their kids. Imagine the poor buggar who has two or more kids racing. I already know from my local club that plenty of parents are saying this is bull**** and getting their kids involved in other things.
The arguement that a licence in Vic is cheaper after 11 races than a NSW licence should be treated as total crap. Considering the bulk of riders won't do 11 events a year, and that's open and club events combined, makes that statement in fact an admission that Vic licences are too expensive.
Alan C used the term "user pays" and that is exactly how it should be. A reasonable cost for the licence, which is effectively your registration with MAV or whoever and an event levy which recognises the exposure to risk of a particular event.
This is a bad situation which may well see lots of people leave the sport in droves. Someone should tell MAV that 90% of riders don't have shiny transporters and sponsorship and don't want to financially support those that do.
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Al Kidd |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2003 : 9:01:41 PM
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| Spot on Al. I don't know how MAV can suggest setting up their own insurance company. They'll have to buy themselves some real management skills first. |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2003 : 09:50:30 AM
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A list of insurance claims, I believe those for the 2002 year was read out. Of the approx 25 or so claims, 3 seemed be true public liability claims. 2 of these were pit crew being hit by bikes, one a young girl bitten by a dog. The rest were riders claimimg for consequences of the risks they acknowledged eg. an enduro rider making a claim for falling on a log on the track!! Most of these were less than $100k, but some exceeded $250k. I suspect this is why insurance companies are a bit toey when asked to take on these sorts of liabilities.
We are now in possesion of some facts. I have quoted part of the HMRAV's delegates report, Ray covers two important points, Insurance claims by our competitors and Control of MV. I shall start another TOPIC to discuss the second part of rays suggestioncalled Club Unity.........."I guess the thing that strikes me after attending a number of MV meetings now is that MV is meant to be run by the riders for the riders. If you don’t like the way they do things then it’s time to get the democratic process working. Enough political (ie club) pressure will have some impact, but it will take a concerted effort. This could mean lobbying other clubs to a) send delegates and b) present a united front on issues of concern. The MV executive may seem to have their own agenda, but enough it seems to me they will respond to overwhelming force of opinion – if it’s presented with sufficient depth of concern by enough clubs.
Ray Steptoe Club Delegate"
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John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2003 : 10:25:36 AM
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| I wonder just what we are paying for with the $350 fee? The breakup of CAMS fees is about 10% insurance 90% admin costs. Are we perhaps paying such a high fee to support an unviable circuit at Broadford? |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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steve
Level 2 Member
Queensland
86 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2003 : 2:19:24 PM
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Hi All
Here in Queensland it is $250 I think?? & I sure if we had the $350 you have in Vic! lots of people would pull the pin here in Qld. Here in Qld we have a local track 4.5klms new, which did not get approval from MA!! They race most week-ends at a so called "Black Meeting" You pay a price to race & a other figure for insurance! $100 total! a few well know racers (MA license holders) raced at a meeting, A letter was said out to the racers members clubs, saying that they can no longer race under a MA licence events because of there support of the "Black Meetings" After this threat from MA Banning people racing & names appearing in the B/M week-ends program, & this racers got some legal advice the ban was dropped!! end of story. I also heard the same stuff went on in Darwin NT & when the a legal rep, all so a racer went & told that infact is incorrect to ban people from competeing at BLACK MEETING if you have a MA licence! It was also dropped Darwin has its insurance with the Government & also the track has not got MA approval also. Couldn't we look along the same lines as these groups of Historic Racing Clubs form a union between Clubs run our own Classic Meetings in different states user pays $100 a members Racing Licence A Year $100 a meeting $50 for insurance like inter club meeting but inter Australian Historic Classic Race Club, I also think NZ do the same?? Couldn't all the clubs get together & work on a union of some kind to serve the Historic R/R people & not the Motor/X & Prime Movers money people, also how many tracks have MA licence approval 3?? that sucks. All I'm interested in is Racing my old bikes with like minded people & don't have to rob the local bank to do so
Steve |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2003 : 5:49:14 PM
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| I am not trying to defend the indefensible, but you need to look at the books which are available to the clubs. The figures are publically available. It is not a manner of just setting a price, costs have to be covered so the next generation dont get a bigger bill. I suspect that other states may not be covering the true costs at the moment because there is no eal reason for costs to be much greater in Vic. than anywhere else. NSW does have an advantage of having nearly twice as many riders than Vic. but they have twice the costs to a certain extent as well. There is no doubt Broadford costs some money, but if we did not have it race track hire costs would be much higher as a result of less competiton and availability, so it may be acedemic to say we are paying extra for Broadford. I was not in attendance when the insurance figures were read out, but our delegate was. It is frightening to hear what people claim for. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2003 : 7:06:56 PM
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John, Do you really think the existence of the Broadford track, keeps track fees lower at other circuits? There must really be a demand for motorcycle circuits (Calder don't even run bike meetings these days).
I went to the Vic Road Race Champs at Winton last weekend. Typically the grids were twenty bikes (Winton has a limit of forty). At the recent Preston Club run Interclub there were about sixty entries.
Looks like the whole sport in Vic is in a downwards spiral.
While we have this lack of participation costs must rise for the remaining riders.
I suspect the resistance to single event licences at historic road races, was prompted by jealosy on the part of other groups. How BL**DY childish!! |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2003 : 08:28:02 AM
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As you know I had my backside burned when I carried the bags for a new solo class, following a perception of support. I dont get fooled easily now. I have mentioned at MV management meetings we are planning a submission, I am just waiting for it. Despite asking within the HMRAV and widely over the internet for submissions about a possible 3 event historic licence, not a single word has been written or said. Personally I will pay the $350, but since there is not actual written support for a presentation I do not believe anybody is really concerned about licence costs, I think its like the reaction to the GST, some are blaming license costs when really its something else. Many sloppy business people blamed the GST for closing, whereas the truth was their sloppy management. Did you hear the drought is a result of the GST as well!!! |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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