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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
 Posted - 14 Feb 2003 : 7:00:27 PM
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| No not a medallion for fronting. A perpetual trophy for the "500cc single aussie wizz banger", the Wizz bangers would compete in the Post classic, Forgotten Era 1962 to 1980 500cc solo race against all comers. Whereas we would expect a 2 stroke to win the 500 race, this award would be only for a machine that complies with the Aussie Wizz Bang specifications. Perhaps we would need to have them listed on the trophy to stop the do gooders altering the rules so they win it without a machine that looks anything like the original idea. We could name the "Skase" award because it has no class, appears to have no smarts in it but manages to take everybody down! |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2003 : 10:21:57 AM
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It might be interesting to think about what bikes would be encouraged by an across-period class like the 500cc Four Stroke aircooled single class.
I have never seen a post 62 Matchless racing, however there are a few around. There was a guy at Broadford with a motor a while back. I believe these motors have G50 flywheels. The bikes were super, but I think no complete ones remain on the road.
450 Ducatis are good things, however when you start racing them against two strokes they will blow their guts out. I rarely ever see one at a meeting.
BSA B40, Victor, Ex army B25 (?), CCM - some of them are being used in Historic Motocross, I believe. I have never seen one road raced, but they wouldn't be bad in a single cylinder class.
There are a few Husquvarna aircooled motocross engines about from the seveties. There was actually a factory built road racer with one of them.
Nobody except Doug Fraser has used a 4 valve Jawa (head), and the later speedway engines simply aren't used for road racing.
Royal Enfield Continentals were apparently raced in UK with some success. I've never seen one here.
There must be a lot of seventies four stroke Jap engines around (Hondas ?) which could be used, only two SR500 Yamahas turn up regularly to meetings in Vic.
The only problem I can see with the idea of the new class, is that some guys who ride P2 and P3 bikes might feel they are going to get beaten - I don't think so. A lot of early racers should outperform the unit construction motored bikes.
John, I take your point about encouraging riders to ride 'complying' bikes in the usual events. However if we can run one event per meeting for the Single Cylinder Class, it will give the guys a chance to really compete on a fair basis. With P2 and P3 bikes alone we should get a three quarters full grid. |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2003 : 9:01:49 PM
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| Personally I dont give a damn about the possibility that P2 or P3 riders may feel distraught and need therapy. We cant pamper to them forever. They have got events to go to now. Manyt choose not to come. The Aussi e Wizz bang category is to encourage some new blood with machines that dont belong in a museum, the idea is for machines up to 1980 frame with discs. If the P@ and P3 blokes wanna race against them let em! |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2003 : 10:45:15 PM
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| John, I think I'm going to buy the 4 Valve Jawa, make a set of engine plates and try the bike. It puts it into P5, so I'll be up against the TZ's, but I still think it's worth trying. Paul Smart won a 500cc GP in Czechoslovakia on a Mk3 Seeley/G50 in 1972. It might have been in the wet, but I think a 4 Valve Jawa just might turn out quite a bit more than a G50, after it's been played with. If it can compete with the two strokes, it's worth persevering with. |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2003 : 09:56:27 AM
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I notice that this issue is amongst the highset read topics, BEARS is higher. Can I pass on to the committee that there is real interest in the form of machines on the grid? De we get the trophy organised? How long would it take somebody to fiddle around and build a suitable machine, Sidecars take about 18 months, but would a solo be faster? What I am getting at , is when would we expect to see some machines?
Send me a private message if you are planning something if you like. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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Former Member
deleted
79 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2003 : 3:33:45 PM
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John. You could certainly pass on to the HMRAV committee that the topic has been read by a lot of people, but don't forget to tell them that the only people that have really participated are yourself and Alan C.
If there is interest in this topic, and BEARS, it might well be that people are ready to see post 1980 bikes recognised rather than support for this oddball special class.
The HMRAV would have to think long and hard about buying trophies for a non existent class that isnt even historic and has no reasoning behind it that will get people into true historic racing.
and why are you asking for private messages on the topic, isn't this an open forum?
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Al Kidd |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2003 : 6:22:08 PM
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Al I will pass your message along with all the others. Why a private message, I have learnt that some people may not want to signal their interest for what ever reason they may have. If you think I am trying to create a secret society that is unfortunate. I have tried to be as open as possible and open discussions on as many topics possible. I note over the time I have been involved with the committee that many topics are simply not discussed at all. But I do get frustrated when there is little positive comment about anything. I did remark there were many site views, not participants. I did ask does that mean many are interesdted enough to get a 500cc machine. I did ask right at the start was there scope for a mickey mouse class. To date your comment is the only one against it, does that mean others are happy with it or not. I take it they are happy to see it develop, because the opportunity is here to say otherwise. As Secretary I have to seek all info and I always assume people agree with an idea if they say nothing. I have mentioned earlier that the HMRAV has agreed to promote P5 and yet you still go on and on about the fact that HMRAV took so long to take up the P5.That fact has been admitted. What else can I do? Discussions with other club secretaries off site confirm that few P5 machines turn up to their meetings either, so I have the impression it is not fair to blame the HMRAV entirely for limited numbers of P5. So Al you feel "The HMRAV would have to think long and hard about buying trophies for a non existent class that isnt even historic and has no reasoning behind it that will get people into true historic racing." Do others agree with you. I agree it is a different approach, but as we have all seen Historic racing has been shrinking, so why not try a mickey mouse approach. I ask all readers to make a comment about what they think of this mickey mouse idea to get racers on the track. I will assume if there is no comment then you agree the idea is worth while trying!
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John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2003 : 1:08:01 PM
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| Over the counter in my shop I have has a suggestion that the frames should be limited to road based chassis, with a minimum weight listed. Also, I have found a trophy volunteer. So any ideas on a weight limit? |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2003 : 9:03:59 PM
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When you refer to 'road-based frames', do you include the Seeley Condor? It was a street version of the Mk3/G50 sold to the US.
I know where there is a good straight BSA A7 frame for $200 if anyone wants it. I think we should be encouraging the guys to build something decent. Using up early british frames which could be better used for restorations seems unnecessary.
There are lowboy featherbeds with 26 deg. head angle available from NZ for about $1500. I would think that would be the minimum I'd use for this class.
The old manx/seeley/rickman frames were the geometry they were, for a good reason. If you build a 45 BHP Jawa into one of the older frames you can really land on your head.
Using a jap frames designed for a two stroke or a four really wouldn't be a good idea. I can't think of one post 62 frame from japan I'd use.
Of the old British frames BSA/Enfield/featherbed/seeley/rickman are what I'd use. If this class gets going there could be a market for more replicas. So I suggest someone needs to have a talk to Bob Martin or whoever builds those good frames for Ken Lucas.
The good thing about this class is that it would encourage building bikes as they were in the fifties. The design restrictions are the same except we now have a ready supply of engines similar to those available pre 62, which produce good power and are reliable. |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2003 : 08:03:02 AM
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| Dont forget the disc brakes and also I think you would be elligible to have umbrella girls with this clas cos it goes to 1980 which you cant have with the pre 1962 because the girls were not good enough then!! Any ideas on the merit of a weight limit? |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2003 : 08:41:40 AM
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I don't think a lower weight limit is a good idea. I believe one objective we should all have, is to build bikes that perform as well as we can make them. Light weight is one of the keys to good handling and acceleration.
I was lucky enough to find some titanium bolts for the Seeley, and intend to make titanium axles. Even though it is only a couple of pounds, it makes a difference. The bolts were old Hornet stock from GAF, and I believe they might be available somewhere else at low cost.
Depends a bit whether you really take pride in what you ride.
Incidently there is a famous Australian road racer who has built an ultralight BSA Gold Star (period 3), he's been working on it for years. It's literally full of titanium.
Development is what racing is about, doesn't matter how light the bike is, you still have to ride it. Be honest, Greg Johnson will beat any of us on similar machinery. (Horsey built the Goldie, he'll be unbeatable also in the single class) |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2003 : 09:21:52 AM
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| I am not sure titanium would be kosher for P3 bikes, development is one thing but cheating and going beyond the spirit of Historic Racing is another. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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Allan
Site Moderator
National
599 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2003 : 09:45:19 AM
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| CC iam official an old fart now have applied for old pension! lol tit parts were around in the 50/60's nothing new just that we could not afford the stuff c go ahead and use it! |
Allan Greening |
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Allan
Site Moderator
National
599 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2003 : 10:37:28 AM
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| Yes i remember when Ron Angle got a set of tit bolts for his? TR500 racer in 1970? cost more money than a house it even made head lines in the Melbourne news papers in the sporting pages gee we don't see that very often! brings back memories Like Angle , tooms, who was the racer who had a panel van with a black panther on the side a nd a V8 motor in it? him and his brother !rode Pimmies Vincent/manx, Boof Eagens Velo ?Maybe we need a I remember when page! but only for Real classic rider remember the SA side car racer through out his passanger at Darley end for him but the bike still was first over the line maybe Orrie Salter?? Ronnie and Dick Young Barry marchell and a couple of othe racers from Richmond /Abbosford in Vic John u r a old side car man should bring back names to u! |
Allan Greening |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2003 : 4:34:09 PM
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On page 32 of Classic Bike for December 2002, there is a letter from Bill Pound and a picture of Pimms Vincent, which he used to call 'the beast'. I remember him riding it at Phillip Island when the clevis fell out of the front brake as he approached turn one. I believe he had the aluminium bodied van with the V8, he got booked doing about 130mph in it, coming home from a meeting.
He now lives in California.
If Titanium bits are illegal, so are andy molnar manxes, they're full of it. The Henderson Matchless actually had a titanium rod. |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2003 : 10:06:42 PM
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| If Titanium was so expensive that very few used it, why does that it make it kosher today 40 years on. Surely common usage has to be a determining factor, not some idea that because the aking of England used it we can now. Perhaps this difference of opinion about what is fair, what is was truthfully in use and what people can get away with today is one reason why Historic racing is in the state that it is. Personally I think the use of Titanium generally today stinks, it is not representative of the past by your own admissions, and is only used by those who want to cheat today. Unfortunately it may be being used by those who can win on skill alone anyway. In sidecar I notice that machines have fronted with vast improvements that appeared in 1980 masqurading as post classic machines today. Perhpas most of us are too nice, we dont cheat, we dont dob and we do not protest with &70 when perhaps we should.I have started another discusion about this subject so we stick to the single on this topic. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2003 : 08:41:41 AM
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One of the things I have said on the other topic is that 'any historic machine should be eligible for one of the 'periods' regardless of what races it runs in'.
I believe the new 'single cylinder four stroke class' should definitely be a 'development class'. My Seeley-Jawa (if it gets built) would be a P5 machine, and for all other events would have to race against TZs etc. Seems to me warrants the use of a bit of titanium, especially the conrod. |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2003 : 6:43:35 PM
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| Somebody asked about fule injection being permissible. I guess whilst it has not been discussed, most would have expected normal carburation. Also, ignition I felt electronic would be permisible what are your thoughts? |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2003 : 07:48:41 AM
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One of the guys in that photo I sent you is Richard Bendell. He set up Motec to make engine management systems a few years ago, and is now a bit rich. He said that he made a system for the works Hondas a while back, which had an airbox around the carbies. Inside the airbox the injector nozzles were in the original carbie bell mouths. You could turn on the petrol to the carbies and the bike would run as normal, but the injection system was worth two seconds per lap.
Wal Phillips injectors were available in the fifties. I've seen them, but I'd never use one, they seem too crude, however if you combined them with one of Richard's systems, you'd have something pretty effective. Trouble is I don't know how you would stop this except by making a rule - no fuel injection on P3 and P4 bikes. This means that only petrol fuelled bikes could use it.
As far as electronic ignition is concerned I believe it should be banned for P3, it simply wasn't about in the era. |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2003 : 08:55:43 AM
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| Alan the question about electronic ignition was related to the Aussie wiz bang 500cc single award, I take it people would happy for it to be in eleigible for qualifying machines, ie up to 1980 frames, discs, but what about cooling will the Eso and Jawa's run on petrol properly? |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2003 : 3:18:38 PM
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| From telephone conversations it has been revealed that 2 valve engines would be able to run alcohol and 4 valve engines would need to be run on petrol. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2003 : 10:49:18 PM
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| I know of at least one P3 machine which has a black box up under the tank. I don't really care what ignition system anyone wants to run in the suggested single cylinder class. Apparently the late racing Hondas had a three position switch, which you operated if it rained to give more or less torque. Fixed timing or one curve will do me, the less I have to operate the better. I think you are correct about the four valve Jawas they first came out in 1975. To be period 5 legal they would have to run on petrol, means changing the piston, carb jets and timing - big deal! If you want to use one legitimately that's what you've got to do. Otherwise use a two valve motor, if you really want to run alcohol (period 4). A four valve would be quite OK on 10 to 1 comp and petrol. If you can run an aerial on petrol without seizing, you can certainly run a Jawa on it. |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2003 : 10:56:30 PM
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I've got a question for Matcho Mick, Keith Campbell and anyone else running a fast four stroke 500 single in Period 3. How would you feel about running in a normal single cylinder race if the two SR500 Yamahas were included? In the first instance this would be the only difference between the old type of races and the proposed new class.
The SR500s have single discs. Would that make you feel like not racing with them? |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2003 : 11:47:56 PM
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Well you are going to have to come up with better explanations about how this category will help riders come on to the track. The points against the idea were 1.People just want more classes so they can get one for their bike to win in.
2. They can come out on these things and ride anyway, they dont need a trophy.
So I can now see why things will not improve with Historic Racing the attitude of we have always done it this way with these classes must be ok because we are still doing it; admittedly the numbers are dropping, we have no specators and every other person has broken the spirit of the rules. It cant be broke so dont fiddle with it.
I dont even ride solos and I felt ridiculed,trying to get the concept discussed, it will be a long time before I offer any support to a solo rider for an idea, if his mates cant throw the support in at an early stage to keep a good idea afloat good ideas will never get up. So at the moment I am dispirited there is little support to look at any improvements. If you want improvement you are going to need to show supportive action with letters, bikes on the track and attendance at meetings yourselves. I cannot do it alone, I am not convinced enough people want any improvements so I shall probally not attend the site any longer I have other things to do with my time until I see the support on the ground. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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Former Member
deleted
79 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2003 : 02:31:17 AM
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John. Don't be too disheartened, this particular class you were pushing was dead in the water before it stated.
The reasons from the HMRAV committee are valid and certainly mirror the view of most people I've spoke to. This topic has been the most read on this site I think, so that shows there is lot of interest for air cooled 500 singles. That level of interest should not be discarded just because you lost a round.
There was no demonstrated support for your proposal but given the interest there is support for something. The HMRAV, and the historic community generally, should drill down and find out what support is for.
A couple of guesses come to mind..
1. Run a sub class in 500 P3 for less modified or developed bikes, or ones that can't hold a candle to the 60's+ plus models because the were built in the late 40's. Call it Clunman 500 or something.
2. Work on a way to promote P5 500's. Offer a substantial trophy or promote a series for them.
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Al Kidd |
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David
Site Administrator
Australia
999 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2003 : 07:36:27 AM
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John,
Al is right (again).. Just because a of another set back by small amount of small minded people, you are willing to through it in..
quote:
Originally posted by Al
John. Don't be too disheartened, this particular class you were pushing was dead in the water before it stated.
Just so you all know:quote:
Originally posted by Al
This topic has been the most read on this site I think, so that shows there is lot of interest for air cooled 500 singles.
Here is the top ten replied to and read topics of the forums:
Top 25 Replied To Topics
No. Topic Subject Replies Count
1. 500cc Single Special 55
2. 750cc PUSHROD CLASS 32
3. BEARS 30
4. Potential new racing categories, HMRAV` 25
5. HISTORIC LICENCE PRESENTATION 23
6. Post Classic Eligibility 22
7. HMRAV DIRECTIONS 21
8. What makes a Racing Bike? 19
9. Rebirth of the PCA? 17
10. Rider's Pay 16
Top 25 Read Topics
No. Topic Subject View Count
1. Post Classic Eligibility 384
2. Who Won it - CMA Trophy 367
3. 500cc Single Special 367
4. Rider's Pay 346
5. BEARS 337
6. Forgotten Era 310
7. 750cc PUSHROD CLASS 299
8. A Fast Laverda 750 295
9. Island Classic Results 292
10. Potential new racing categories, HMRAV` 262
As you see, there are quite a few well read topics, just no replies. I can supply a list of the top 25 if you want.
But as I have told you in the past John, you are doing a good job, from what I have seen in the past. 
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Regards,
David
Webmaster & Owner of Classic Motorcycling Australia
Quote: I thought I wanted a career, turns out I just wanted to be paid. |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2003 : 08:12:50 AM
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| Thanks for the support fellas, a hard lesson learned. Interest and support are different. I felt odd last night at the meeting when the idea was dumped. I know the HMRAV has looked at the clubman idea and I thought it was discussed on this site some where is that correct? As for the P5 500 what machines would be eligible? |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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David
Site Administrator
Australia
999 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2003 : 08:53:27 AM
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John,
you are correct in your assumtion, that the Clubmans Class was discussed.quote:
Originally posted by john
Thanks for the support fellas, a hard lesson learned. Interest and support are different. I felt odd last night at the meeting when the idea was dumped. I know the HMRAV has looked at the clubman idea and I thought it was discussed on this site some where is that correct?
The message you was looking for is:
You must be logged in to see this link.
and has 240 views, as of current (only ranked 13th highest read)  .
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Regards,
David
Webmaster & Owner of Classic Motorcycling Australia
Quote: I thought I wanted a career, turns out I just wanted to be paid. |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2003 : 11:26:11 AM
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PRODUCTION CLASS '57:
(for machines complying with the following requirements)
Machines are meant to represent the make and model, as produced by the factory, in these events:-
Machine must be as manufactured before December 31 1957.
Capacity must be as manufactured, allowing for 5% capacity oversize.
Gearbox must have the same number of gears as original model. Operation must be as original specs i.e.; hand or foot change.
All major components must represent the same manufacturer and model i.e.; frame, motor, gearbox, forks and wheels.
Motors should be identical externally to original model. Different heads, barrels etc, are not allowed.
Brakes must be as produced, twin leading shoe modifications and double sided hubs not allowed.
Rim and tyre sizes as per of GCRs
Classes:- 0 - 250cc: 263 - 350cc: 368 - 500cc: 526 - 1300cc
A trophy for 1st place will be given for each class in the scratch races. Handicap events; the first three machines home will receive 1st, 2nd and 3rd trophies irrespective of capacity or class
THIS IS SOMETHING FROM NSW. I HAVE HEARD COMMENTS THAT IT IS TOO RESTRICTIVE FOR USE AS A CLUBMAN RULE BUT MAY BE MODIFY TO PROVIDE FOR CLUBMANS, WHAT ARE YOUR IDEAS? DAVID GREENING TELLS ME THERE IS A CLUBMANS TOPIC SO PERHAPS I SHALL MOVE IT OVER TO THAT TOPIC |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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