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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
 Posted - 20 Nov 2002 : 2:26:34 PM
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The HMRAV has been investigating a new sidecar class, I have included the details and seek comments please. We feel it may be used at the ridedays until we have to worry about making room in a program for them. Although we feel they could go on the back of a classic P3 sidecar race.
350cc CLASSIC FUN SIDECAR HMRAV CATEGORY
DISCUSSION PAPER draft # 3 October. 2002
SUMMARY
The purpose of this discussion is to try and create a fun class for sidecars based on Period 4 350cc Honda 4 Stroke singles, twins or 4 cylinders or Period 3 2 or 4 strokes. It is hoped that by writing these rules there will be some semblance of order. It may be used as a youth development class; accordingly some of the “hot up “ parts have been specifically excluded. The class will be run at the ride days until the numbers build up.
CRITERIA
The following criteria have been established to assist discussion.
A] It is recognised that is not a development group.
B] Rules may be amended to keep the racing even.
C] Handicaps will be introduced at the discretion of the back markers or the club members, depending apon which group has the loudest response at a general meeting of the club.
The Honorable Secretary will be the arbitrator.
D] To encourage riders to learn about sidecars.
DETAILS
Wheels may be derived from of pressed steel, or aluminium or steel rims with spokes.
Rim Diameter minimum Front and Rear 16 inch sidecar 15 inch. Maybe Scooter 12” to be finalised.
Rim width max. WM4,
Steering –Telescopic or Earles
Riding style- sitter only
Brakes - Drum 8 inch Max. Diameter. No linked or sidecar brakes. Any linings are permissible.
Frame- Stock frames must be used. Tubular steel sidecar frame may be able to be detached or be welded to the frame. Head stock top to be at least 28 inches high from the ground.
Racing numbers; white numbers on blue background.
Tyres – treaded tyres only.
Fairings - No fairing on the bike but a sidecar shield, 13” wide, 11” deep and 10” high min. can be fitted. Handle bar screens 300mm high are permissible.
Ground clearance 150mm minimum under the frame, feet and exhaust can hang down.
Engine Maximum 360cc standard camshaft, bore and stroke, with rebore 5% allowance.
Fuel type – pump fuel or Avgas gravity feed only. Standard fuel tank or similar. No chair tanks or fuel pumps.
Ignition Systems. Points only because of the need to keep racing economical
PROHIBITED USES
Cast Alloy or Magnesium wheels, Slick tires, Carbon or Kevlar Modern Materials, hot cams, Chrome-moly steels. Alcohol fuels.Cheque books
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John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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Allan
Site Moderator
National
599 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2002 : 3:14:40 PM
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 rule 6.6.1.1 the class is their all ready!! I can put the tz350g into a side car what for!! Please get it together "all we want is "" classic racing as it was in the 70/80/90 it was good fun then and all had almost correct type race bikes |
Allan Greening |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2002 : 5:42:43 PM
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I dont think the "ALL WE WANT " method is working. The small sidecar idea has come from people who want a training class for newbies. TZ 350 were not considered practical for the purpose they had in mind. But Alan, the TZ350 would surely be worth playing with.It is not intended as a championship class but already there are about 3-4 outfits being built to suit which is a start to getting more people involved. Thats potentially 3- 4 new sidecar riders in a matter of a couple of months.Perhaps something like the early days of the bucket class. Secondly, it would appear as if people have been trying to replicate what happenned in the 60/70/80 but not much has changed. The HMRAV is thinking about working laterally to invent variations that may appeal to new riders because it would appear as if the replication system attempts are simply not working. Do you think it will?
But surely if there is action in a particular area and it is of no interest to some people, but others are keen, why not encourage it or just let it pass. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2002 : 09:06:54 AM
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The discussions about this proposal have been extensive off site. Two peoplle have questioned the value of limiting it to Hondas only and the minimum clearance. The clearance is within the rules and may be altered once we get one built to check what the clearance actually is. The proposers have pointed out that the speedway have a similiar restriction with the 250cc Kawasaki aircooled outfits, so the precedent has ben set. The main reason is there are plenty about, nobody is racing them and it is simply a line drawn in the sand by two people who wanted to get some action happenning.
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John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2002 : 10:12:17 AM
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As Secreatry of the HMRAV I sent this response to a member, I thought it may be of interest to others "Richard, the Golden rule says , "He who has the Gold makes the rules". 4 weeks ago there was no discussion about a 350cc sidecar category for use by the HMRAV. Nobody was riding them. If Robin and I had been drinking beer at the time instead of coffee, we could have been excused for making such a mess of the proposal, but we were not, so now I need to defend the idea as a matter of principle. For 20 years an opportunity to create something like this has been there, but nobody did so. Now two fellows are trying and even though I was one of them, I reckion it is OK to let their original idea generally go ahead. Today 3-4 people are now talking about building them, and 2 350cc P3 outfits have asked if they can be included. This request has already been incorporated. Thats a vast improvement on the situation 1 November 2002. The ideas have been passed on for discussion and improvement.
The precendent of LIMITING engines has been set years ago with production racing for solos, 125 Hondas for junior speedway and speedway 250cc outfits, obviously learned gents decided and proved it was a good idea idea at the time, and those decisions have proven to be successful. So I cannot see why Historic racing should not try a previously successful idea.
Anyway, common sense tells us we all want anything safe and while we do not know how one will turn out we soon will, when Robin has built his. The plan has always been to check it out for safety and clearance and then make rule adjustments if required. With regard to clearance, I have been informed that the GCR's provide for a max. of 160mm the proposal involves 150mm max. with revision if proven necessary. Nobody seems to accept your point that potential 350cc outfit riders will pull out of the deal because they are forced to ride "those damned Hondas".
I suggest we get all those people you mention that are concerned about the safety aspects do two things;
1 Identify themselves, and put their own points for discussion across.
2 Come along to the HMRAV rideday and participate in the testing program we had already planned when Robin has his gleaming new machine ready for action and decide whether its a goer or not.
The other important aspect to be very careful of is, that this area of racing is full of opinions that never get tested because many others want to pour scorn on any ideas before they get up. As a smart ****d sidecar rider I am determined to force the issue about this technique of denigration that constantly has appeared in the short time I have been involved with Historic racing. Reasoned discussion will generally always produce a better result, and this is how I intend to persue my job as Secretary. If "others " have an opinion, get them to present that opinion themselves and participate in the reasoning. Principles before Personallities is an important aspect of this technique."
John Daley
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John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2002 : 12:01:51 PM
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I have had this suggestion about rear wheels.
Rear wheel size would be better sized by rolling diameter than rim diameter ie. minimum 23ins. or58.5cm. =16ins with 3.50 tyre. or 15ins with 4.50tyre or 13ins with 5.20tyre. all available cheaply and laced on easily. Side car 8.00ins. min x3.5ins.max, again scooter wheels and tyres easy to get in 8-10 and 12ins from wreckers. Any comments would be welcome
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John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2002 : 4:51:38 PM
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John, I think the idea of racing 350 Honda outfits is a good one for getting an entry level for historic racing. However I question the use of 'standard frames'. A class for 350 Honda four Kneelers AND standard framed bikes would be more likely to involve me personally. You could bring in some form of handicapping. I think Gokarts have their following due to the fact that when you have one it is engineered like an F1 car, but it's still cheap ($3000 without engine).
I think anyone who wants to race should understand it will cost (machinery) about $4000 to start, and that is recoverable.
I think we also have to look at 'spectator appeal'. |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2002 : 11:31:17 AM
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| We have in mind a cost of less than $1000, some people have spent $150 to build one of these magnificent machines. This is in the spirit of the concept |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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